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FaunaTopSites Feedback Forum Any issues related to the FaunaTopSites listings are welcome to be posted here.

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Old 02-02-2006, 11:41 AM   #31
Chameleon Company
Rich, I do agree with this statement of yours in Post #29:

Quote:
More to the point about this thread is that we should be careful to not kill the messenger if we believe he may be carrying info that is incorrect.
If I can clarify my concerns a bit. It was not that the thread starter may have had incorrect information or not, it was what I feel was a deliberate mischaracterization of the other forum and its management, or if not deliberate, than an attack on that forum. Between seeing this as the thread starter by "Watchdog":
Quote:
thereptileroom = cheat of the month
with the "thumbs down" icon, and then the perceived need by Gary and others to rebut that statement, I thought I was viewing a BOI thread. While the stated purpose of the BOI is to address the transaction of "goods and merchandise", I would also think that "services" could fit under that umbrella. I also must point out that the subforum header for this feedback page states:
Quote:
Any issues related to the FaunaTopSites listings are welcome to be posted here.
If watchdog had begun the thread just pointing out that he had questions about "hit spikes" etc, or any other more objective characterization, then this thread is short. But the way its posted, I think that one of the rules of the site applies:
Quote:
Posting BOI topics in other forums - 1 point
On February 20, 2005 a payment and verification system was implemented whereby anyone wanting to post on the BOI is now required to have a minimum Participant Level membership in order to do so. Some people may decide to try and circumvent this requirement by posting Board of Inquiry types of threads in other forums where the verification restriction is not in place. Such instances will have the threads deleted as soon as they are located and the poster of said thread assessed this warning. Only the fact that some people may do this accidentally keeps this from being a stiffer penalty rating.
While I highlighted the word "accidentally", I think that the thumbs-down icon, and the word "cheat", in the header show this as a deliberate "no-pay, no ID" circumvention of the BOI. That the replies so quickly came out in objection to the original claim would lend plenty of support to the claim of it being frivolous and contrived as well.
Lastly:
Quote:
The next messenger very well could be carrying accurate info, but be very reluctant to present the message if it carries the risk of having his/her head lopped off for the trouble.
If the rules are clearly stated, and objectively applied and enforced, and the information "accurate" or at least not maliciously fabricated, then how does the application of the rules change anything from the system as we now know and accept it? I think that all members here are sensitive to frivolous and malicious attacks against someone's reputation using this site, and I think that in the minds of many, it would rank as the highest possible abuse of the forum. I think that is a large part of the motivation behind the creation of the specific rule that I cited above. Besides all of the above listed reasons, this individual did post their name as "Shane sixsixsix". This was not an innocent and well-intended messenger. I do not think that this is a borderline call, but that is just IMHO. Thanks.
 
Old 02-02-2006, 12:22 PM   #32
Dr Owens
Jim,
After reading your post I agreed with you. However, the hard part was deciding what kind of warning points the guy qualified for. Quite frankly, IMO 1 warning point for posting a BOI topic in another forum didn't seem sufficient. (I agree with you that this certainly wasn't an "accident"...especially since he posted a similar topic in the past (even though no one seemed to notice). In the end I decided on "Name calling and general derogatory statements" not because it was necessarily the most fitting penalty, but because it is applicable and the number of warning points seem more appropriate given the nature of the infraction (IMO at least).

I will leave it up to Rich as to whether or not he wants to move/remove this topic, or modify my approach to the problem.
 
Old 02-02-2006, 12:40 PM   #33
shrap
Well done, Jim!!
 
Old 02-02-2006, 12:46 PM   #34
Chameleon Company
Thanks Dr. Owens. I don't think that too many would feel that Rich was unfair if he did take it down, although the negative impact of this particular thread was pretty minimal with the rapid rebuttal of the original complaint. I very much think it warranted the fine and suspension. While this individual may not feel the need to fork out $10 to come back, should they choose to resurface under a different name and perhaps attempt to be a bit more subtle in the future, there is the possibility now of checking IP addresses for a track record.

This is one of the more obscure areas of the forum, yet did generate some good views and comments. But whatever precedent is set here could then be used as a guide elsewhere. It helps to refine and tweak the enforcement policies ..... not quite the U.S. Supreme Court, as they have black robes, and the mods are probably attired in a more random fashion!
 
Old 02-02-2006, 12:56 PM   #35
Dr Owens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamco
the mods are probably attired in a more random fashion!
Attired? I only moderate in the nude.


(I know, I know...now you're going to have to gouge out your mind's eye with a fork. )
 
Old 02-02-2006, 01:02 PM   #36
norsmis
Oh jeeze Jay..... I really didn't need to visualize that........ lol...
 
Old 02-02-2006, 01:04 PM   #37
Gary O
Wow...........I am going to say this here..........My thoughts on a few things are changing and it is for the good. THANKS GUYS!!!
 
Old 02-02-2006, 02:15 PM   #38
Laura Fopiano
Oh man.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Owens
Attired? I only moderate in the nude.


(I know, I know...now you're going to have to gouge out your mind's eye with a fork. )

aghhhhhhhhh..... the fork is firmly planted!! Not a pretty picture Jay!! ROTFLMAO


And Gary......you have a cool little sight yourself............isn't it nice to share kudos rather than insults!!
 
Old 02-02-2006, 02:48 PM   #39
WebSlave
Well, there are a lot of gray areas being addressed, and certainly there will be a lot of differing opinions about it. This IS the FaunaTopSites Feedback Forum, is it not? And the description of this forum reads "Any issues related to the FaunaTopSites listings are welcome to be posted here." Please note the word Any. The original poster of this thread apparently had an issue with what he was seeing taking place on FaunaTopSites.com, and surprisingly enough, found this forum in order to post within it. That being said, regardless of the actual content surrounding what he was reporting, this forum is actually the proper place for it. And there are some precedents that I can fall back on to support that determination.

I started this forum for exactly this sort of discussion. Matter of fact, if I recall correctly, some of the original threads I made for this forum were made by myself in order to bring some apparently cheating to light on FaunaTopSites. So I certainly cannot slam someone else for doing exactly what I had done in earlier instances.

However, I do have to agree with Jay that the language used by "watchdog" was over the edge and far too caustic for what I had intended this forum. But I do disagree that this was a BOI topic, as there is no indication whatsoever that this is an issue related to watchdog, or anyone else for that matter, doing "business" with TheReptileRoom.

As for the suggestion to actually remove this thread, sorry, but no. I think nearly everyone here knows my preference to leave the cards laying on the table, no matter what they say, and not remove anything without an exceptionally overriding reason to do so. It has been my experience that even bad information can often germinate some good if allowed to do so.
 
Old 02-02-2006, 06:23 PM   #40
Chameleon Company
One explanation raises another question.

Rich, I know that you justified the presence of this thread here when you said the following:
Quote:
"Any issues related to the FaunaTopSites listings are welcome to be posted here." Please note the word Any.
I am still a little bit confused (and had posted the same verbage) at your conclusion, as while I fully understand the concept of "issues", I also thought that the characterization with the "thumbs-down" etc made it a BOI issue, which may have been a bad assumption on my part. You mention "many gray areas", and I agree, and also realize that they are inevitable. I do not take umbrage with your decision here, though, as the word "any" can end all debate on this thread about suitability.

I believe the root of my confusion is not this thread, but was brought to light by it. To refresh the reader, here's the rule that I referenced in an earlier post:

Quote:
Posting BOI topics in other forums - 1 point
On February 20, 2005 a payment and verification system was implemented whereby anyone wanting to post on the BOI is now required to have a minimum Participant Level membership in order to do so. Some people may decide to try and circumvent this requirement by posting Board of Inquiry types of threads in other forums where the verification restriction is not in place. Such instances will have the threads deleted as soon as they are located and the poster of said thread assessed this warning. Only the fact that some people may do this accidentally keeps this from being a stiffer penalty rating.
My question is: What is a BOI type of thread? Not as the debate applies to this thread, as you explained that. I have reread the rules for posting on the BOI twice today. While there is much dialogue there about the uses and values to be had in the BOI as a source, rules of conduct, penalties, etc., I truly saw no definition or rule for what is and is not BOI content, and which would then be used as a gauge for imposing the above penalty. Once a thread is identified as having broken this rule, the penalty includes "Such instances will have the threads deleted as soon as they are located ..." There are also several characterizations of the seriousness of BOI posts, signatures, etc, to include this one which I like:
Quote:
......so if you are not willing to stand up, state your claim, and put your name on it, then I'm not interested in providing you the space to make anonymous accusations. Such messages will be deleted as deemed appropriate in the individual circumstances surrounding the message.
I don't know if you see it as a problem. If you do, my recommendation would that any issue which raises a question of integrity about any entity or business, ie good guy, bad guy, need info, deal gone bad, bad ethics, etc, be required to be a BOI thread. This could be with regards to animals, dry-goods, services, husbandry ethics, etc. Some might question the need to require "good guy" posts to be on the BOI, for if a "good guy" post stays all good, then there is no foul. But as mentioned by another post in this thread, they often attract bad comments.

I believe that many would agree with me. I think its important because as is alluded to in the above quote, the BOI requires ID, and this would be the forum for accusations, and anonymity is not allowed there. Even more importantly, any poster there is vested for at least $10, and therefore also has more incentive to not make baseless accusations or characterizations, and also to play by the rules. Basically, I am para-phrasing your reasons listed in the rules for going to a fee and requiring full name ID. In the big scheme of things, all of this is fairly minor, and may not be worth addressing anytime soon, if at all. This thread did however, raise the context for it. If my concerns are answered in the site, and I just missed them, than please redirect me, and accept my apologies. I am not getting any sharper with age!
 

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