Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

Just out of curiosity, is there any possibility that those black marks could indicate UV poisoning? The witblits may be patternless but they are clearly not albinos, so an overproduction of melanin leading to black dots (which the pathology report agrees were 'normal' pigment) could be a sign that these dragons may be oversensitive to UV? I've never owned bearded dragons, but I have heard of UV poisoning/burns in other reptiles.

Snowgyre, that is a good question! This is the sort of questions that we should ask. And that is what I am trying to get at. The whole point should be;
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT DRAGON AND WHY DID IT DIE?

[Bare with me. I am getting the idea that the language barrier is complicating things and people aren't quite understanding my comments. I am going to state my facts one by one and with the aid of some evidence.]

So lets focus on the spotted Witblits...

I have asked Josh several times whether he had the dragon at a veterinarian and what the diagnosis and treatment was. From the lack of him replying we can assume the dragon was never at a vet. Thus we DON'T KNOW what was wrong with it and why it died. It is thus very brave to say that because this individual dragon had a skin disease that all Witblits dargons have skin problems.

I have given my differantials to Josh soon after he told me about the dragon.

This was his mail on 21 Jun 2010:
" Hi,

Have you seen any black spotting on your witblits dragons? One of them i got from you is starting to develop clusters and spots of jet black pigment only on the top part of his body. I origionally thought he had a fungus but i would have seen it on his belly too. The silverback also has a black spot on his back that has been there since i got him. I will send you some pics later next week. Pretty weird stuff.

Josh"

Josh then sent me the picture of the Silverback with the following message:

"Here is a pic of the silverback. you can barely see the spot at the base of his tail on top. I have also seen this with transluscents. Allessandro has one from me he calls "dalmata". His is the most extreme form i have ever seen. I have only seen one or two spots on my stuff ever.

Josh"

This was my reply:
"Hi Josh
Yeah that 'spot' does look a little bit suspicious. I also doubt that
it is fungus. It might be some sort of cancer (like a melanoma). Who
knows if these 'light skinned' dragons are more susceptable to things
like that. I doubt that it is because two dragons sort of rules cancer
out. And then I would definately expect some of mine to have similar
'lesions' since I keep them out in the African sun quite alot. Mine
have no black spots. We have to remember that dragons have quite alot
of black pigment (like the black beard and so), but someway they hide
this black under normal circumstances. Perhaps some parts of their
skin have more melanophores than other parts and now during breeding
season these areas also light up? If this is true then I should see
something similar in my males ina bout a month or two when I wake them
from their sleep. I have seen pictures of those dalmatia's. ...(rest of mail left out due to not applicable) "

Ok so in this mail you can see that I have considered skin cancer (and UV poisoning) as a differential for the Silverback. But due to the fact that one of the Silverbacks AND a Witblits has black spots cancer was unlikely. (Yes there are infectious causes of cancer but I am unaware of any in bearded dragons.) Remember I haven't seen the picture of the Witblits yet so have no idea of the type and extent of the spots. Another reason why I excluded cancer at that stage was because we keep our dragons outside most of the year and have seen no skin lesions of any kind. The South African sun is harsh! We often get extremely high measurements on our Solarmeter but even on these days the dragons seem to just soak up the rays.

I also had my doubts whether it was a fungal disease althought one would have to culture to exclude it.

On 3 July 2010 Josh sent me the picture of the Witblits

This was my reply on the 4th:

"Hi
WOW! I didn't expect this. I thought they were going to be little
spots... I have no idea what that is. It almost looks like little
burns. Perhaps from the UV light? I have had dragons in the past that
burned under a poor quality light. But then you would have seen it in
some of the other dragons as well. Also in animals in the same
enclosure if it was only that specific light that is 'abnormal'. Jeez
Josh I have no idea. Keep on taking pictures of him. This would help
monitor their progression. Hopefully they aren't serious. None of my
dragons have anything like this. When did he start to develop these
marks?
Other than the spots he sure looks in good condition and a nice colour too! ...(rest of mail left out due to not applicable) "

At this stage the witblits does NOT seem to be sick in any degree. In fact he looks quite healthy (except for the spots).

I was thus NOT concerned that there is a problem with the morph because it had a skin problem. It seemed obvious that the skin problem was due to something unknown, not the morph.

Josh replied with:

"Hi, It definately looks weird. There is no skin damage, thats why i ruled out fungus/burns. Plus the other male is kept exactly the same and he has no spots. The spots started to develop about 2 weeks ago. When he is comfortable, the spots are barely visible. When i put a female with him or feed, the spots come out jet black in a matter of seconds.
I will send you more pics. Thanks, Josh"

We thus considered the possibility of 'UV poisoning'/burns but then he would likely have picked up the problem in several cages with the same lights. I can't remember if I asked him which lights he used but I don't think lighting is the problem here. Just for the record; we use ZooMed 10.0 tubes for our hatchlings and growers and ExoTerra 10.0 coils for our adults. We have never had issues with these lights. The lights I referred to in the mail was from a local brand that I can not mention here. That incident happened several years before. In hindsight I recall that not all the lights of that brand was faulty and even in the same batch there were differences. So perhaps UV burns could be the cause. The only way to diagnose this would be a skin biopsy!

Something that makes fungus/bacteria/burns unlikley at this point is the fact that the spots seem to differ in intensity. This is what made me think; PIGMENT! It seems these spots acted in the same way as the beard of a normal dragons.

For 2 months I heard nothing from Josh. No updates, no pictures, nothing.

Then on 14 September 2010 Josh told me in an email with another subject matter that in a 'by the way' way:

"(part left out). I may scratch the whole witblits project all together and focus on the silverback line. I have lost 2 out of the 3 witblits. They get to sub-adult size, then dramatically lose weight, then respiratory problems start to take over. The last one is starting to look thin. (part left out)."

My first reaction is that he was fooling/joking with me. I thought that since he hasn't sent me any updates in 2 months that everything was in order, that the Witblits male healed up, but now he is ionly joking with me.

This was my reply:

"(part left out) It is very very hard for me to believe that they have died. I mean you emailed me pics of them just the other day and they looked healthy and `fat`. Now you say they thin out and die from respiratory problems. Also the fact that you have lost two and I have lost zero. Doesn't add up. You say they are sub adult size when they are sick but then just the other day you said they were breeding which would make them adults. Man this seems like a joke. Are you playing with me or what?
Man I hope you are...
If not then tell me what did the veterinarian`s PM report say? Surely you would have done a PM on such an expensive animals.
(part left out)
I just still can't think that all of a sudden two dragons just died.
(part left out)"

He sent back:
"Hi,

I am in no way messing with you. Also, i'm not trying to get something from you for nothing.

I sent the smaller witblits to "X" (name left out). That animal grew to breeding size, then quickly went downhill. You can ask them yourself if you want.

The witblits with the black spotting was the second one to go downhill. His skin condition looked like some sort of cancer. ''X'' from ''X'' dragons (left out) has seen the dragon in person. Ask him if you like. Same problem as the one sent to "X"... lost weight, then came down with upper respiratory problems. I have a photo of him that i will send to you. You can tell me what you think. Also saved his body so that I can have some tests done on him.

(part left out). I'm taking it pretty well, don't you think? I realize some things are a gamble. If this same situation were to happen to anyone else, they would be on the forums telling the world, which I gurantee would destroy your reputation/morph.

I'm letting you know what is going on with your dragons. If you want to deny that there is some potential problems, that's your choice. I could say nothing at all, but i'm trying to help you out wether you believe it or not.

Good luck,
Josh"

OK so here I knew that Josh wasn't fooling around. He seemed quite upset. Very understandable of course! I contacted the first "X". They never replied.

So the Witblits with the spots died. Up to this point haven't received any pictures of him! Josh thought is seemed like some skin cancer. After only receiving pictures from him TODAY, 27 May 2012 I also think cancer is the most likley cause of this dragons problems.

ALSO SAVED HIS BODY SO THAT I CAN HAVE SOME TESTS DONE ON HIM.
Great! Still waiting for these test results though... Given the fact that you have not supplied any answers yet we will still have to come to a evidence based conclusion.

I have not denied the fact that there wasn't something wrong. I was waiting for evidence. I mean two dragons died. They were expensive dragons. More than enough reason to get a pathologist to have a good look at them.

On 21 Sept I sent him this mail:

"Man this is a real shock to me! I know it doesn't help saying it but for what it is worth, I am realy sorry for your loss.
Please send me some pictures of the dragons. Ones where they are in their last days would be of help.
I am wondering if they did not pick up some disease over in the US, something that we in SA do not have, thus making them more susceptible. Also the fact that they are recessive would make them more prone to disease or other problems.
(part left out).
My plan is not to give insults by saying my animals are still alive and yours are dead. You have much more experience in keeping them than me and in no way am I blaming you for their death. I am just trying to figure this out here. It is just odd that mine are all alive and yours not.
There could be many reasons and that is what I must figure out. They are all relatively the same age, but I guess nine is still smaller than what tours were. Perhaps it is a size related problem and not age related. That would mean mine would go backwards in the future. Tell me what size (lengths and weights) were yours when they got sick and when they died?
How is the last male doing?
I recommend you get a PM done on them.
Bye"

I haven't heard from Josh after this again. My line of thought was quite rational I think; he got the PM/post mortem/autopsy done, the results showed something like cancer/parasites/lung infection or something that clearly isn't morph related. He cut his losses. But was still upset.

I would think that after losing two (and seems possibly a third) such expensive animals one would be in more contact with the breeders!?

It seemed the common problem was they became thin, then died from respiratory problems. The one also had a skin problem of yet unknown cause.
The most common cause for bearded dragons becoming emaciated is internal parasites!

Josh do you know if you have Adenovirus in your flock/colony/group of dragons?
Josh did you ever have one of these dragons tested for Adenovirus?
Josh did you or "X" ever take one of these dragon to the veterinarian?
Josh did you have an autopsy done on the 'spotted' Witblits as I recommended?
Josh did any of the witblits that died receive any treatment of any sort?

Guys I am sorry but to me it seems like I am being conned here. I am made out to be the bad guy.

I find it incredibly weird that I had to hear from a third party that the third dragon died. I also find it extremely weird that none of the other breeders that lost witblits ever contacted me about this. I also find it very strange that for so long Josh hasn't made a huge issue out of this but now all of a sudden it is!?

Ek ruit n vrot rot!

Snowgyre. SO AFTER ALL THIS AND 2 YEARS LATER WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT WITBLITS AND WHY IT DIED. It seems like it is cancer and I am to blame. I will go down in history as the veterinarian that breeds cancerous dragons...

Seems the pictures were not attached. Hope they are now.

I also forgot to mention another point:

A while after Josh sent me the pics of the Silverback with the spot I noticed a similar spot on one of our Witblits. The spot was still small but for the sake of trying to maybe determine what was going on in Josh's animals I put this dragon to sleep. The spot was small. I removed a part of it and sent it to the pathologists.

Already some of you have said I conveniantly lost it... Hah! But luckily I still have the dragon preserved in formalin. I am going to see a world renowned wildlife/zoo pathologist on Tuesday. I am sure she will be able to get some answers from it. I will also take the photos of Josh's Witblits so she can have a look at them. Perhaps she knows what would cause that.

Whether the spot on my one Witblits and the spot/s on Josh's Silverback and Witblits is the same lesion we would never now. Quite unlikley I guess. But at this stage any answer is a good one.

Jaques,

There was never anything wrong with the silverback.It was too early to tell on everything. I am putting your post on the BOI you should stop trying to avoid it.

Could you not request another copy of the pathology report? How long is a specimen viable for testing when preserved in formalin?

Jaques,

There was never anything wrong with the silverback.It was too early to tell on everything. I am putting your post on the BOI you should stop trying to avoid it.

Jay, Josh said himself that the Silverback had a black spot! You can see the black spot on the pic. That is clear as daylight. Didn't you already place it on the BOI?

Could you not request another copy of the pathology report? How long is a specimen viable for testing when preserved in formalin?

Rachel I tried to get the report from them on Saturday. They should have a copy of it somewhere in their system but without a reference number they couldn't trace it.

Fresh samples in formalin is viable for years. What is important though is that the sample is fresh. A rotten putrefied sample will be preserved as rotten and putrefied. Histopathology on these samples will not reveal anything. It is also very important to place small samples in the formalin. Placing a whole dragon in formalin would not work, even if fresh. By the time the formalin has soaked into the dragon the 'insides' would already be rotten. Thus with large dragons place the individual organs in the formalin or pieces thereof. With a small dragon you can cut open the belly an jaw and drop the whole thing in formalin. Try to cut open section of the gut so the formalin fills it.

I think I we will get better answers from the zoo pathologist. She only works with wildlife/exotic/zoo animals. The other pathologists that I sent the first sample to deal with animals and humans on a mass level.

I am looking forward to my trip to the city on Tuesday!

Jay. Seems we posted at around the same time. I have made a post in the BOI. It takes me a while to type these things as I go through my old emails at the same time.

Brother I am throwing facts (as evident by the actual emails exchanged by me and Josh) and science at you and you are still fighting it.

Jeez man!

What facts and what science? Where? I have seen nothing of the sort.

Like I said when josh sent you the infor about the silverback it was too early to tell. Nothing was wrong.

snowgyre- That is a good question. I put the witblits under a single 24 inch 5.0 exo-terra bulb. The dragon was about 16 inches away from it, so it's not getting too much uv.

The silverback has a little cluster of black scales. He has had it since I aquired him, and it has never progressed. Silverback is a simple recessive, patternless mutation. The silver color masks over his existing color, but sometimes pigment will pop through. I have also seen this with some of the second generation silverbacks. If you look at the witblit with the spotting, it's more of a brown color than black. It's also raised, cracking, and has yellow around the edges.

Jaques- I don't have a pathology report, but you claim to have done it to one of your witblits with spots. Convienent for you that you claim the dragon is clean, but have no proof.

Josh

Thank god I read this thread before buyin a wit lolz