Lee Watson Swap Bust

I know on the surface the aquaculture license doesn't seem to have anything to do with bearded dragons, but it is simply a matter of jurisdiction.  Thats the license they say you need to sell them and that's all.  Would it be better if they gave you a ticket and said you didn't have a "desert agamid from Australia" license

Steve Schindler

<!--QuoteBegin--Lee Watson+Sep. 18 2002,12<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lee Watson @ Sep. 18 2002,12<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The bearded dragon ticket was issued for lack of an aquaculture permit, although we have a letter from Rodney W. Horner, Aquaculture Coordinator, stating that they are only interested in indigenous animals. spam_So if there is not a wild population of beardeds in IL, I guess we're all right without it.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>


Steve, I would agree with your assessment if this quotation from Mr. Watson did not show that the license was only supposed to be for native species. spam_If this is true, the application of the law is inaccurate, and the animals should be returned immediately!

By definition an aquaculture license does not apply to bearded dragons. It was a mistake. Very simply put, if it is not native, not endangered/protected, then there is no way for any state conservation/agriculture agency to regulate it. Period. It is outside their abilities under the law. United States Fish and Wildlife is the only agency that deals with "exotic" or foreign species. They only have control over import/export and CITES regulatory matters. They have no rule of law or policy to allow them to in any way regulate the bearded dragons that are captive produced here in the USA. Period. The Food and Drug Administration has no jurisdiction either. The only reptile related law that they were there to enforce is the 4" turtle law that falls under public health.

The beared dragon was just one of the mistakes. They attempted to seize American alligators under the rational that they are protected. They are not native and not protected in Illinois. For that fact they are no longer protected in Florida. So again, they have no right to seize or regulate alligators.

I can keep on with this. There are articles circulating on the net that many vendors were arrested and that there was all kinds of drama. They were not there. Lee and I were there all day. We know what happened. One kid was arrested for a rattlesnake. Others got ticketed. The authorities have already admitted that they were wrong on several topics both to us at the show and since. It was very low key and very little happened. Evan Stahl

I forgot to mention, for all of you guys arguing about police, not one police officer was present! These were all US Fish and Wildlife, Illinois Dept of Agriculture and Federal Food and Drug Administration. I am a full time reptile breeder and have many friends that are state and federal law enforcement personel. This thread was and is about what happened at the show in Streamwood, not ranting about parking tickets. Anyone who does not like a law but does nothing to change it has nothing to complain about as far as I am concerned. That is certainly why it is such a shame that there is no unity in the reptile industry. Evan Stahl

I cannot believe all I have just read!! &nbsp;There are crooked people in everything not just police work. &nbsp;Tim and Classic Dums I cannot believe ya'll said what you did. &nbsp;I know you are expressing your opinions and I am all for that. &nbsp;However, I also feel it only right to let you know how I feel.
&nbsp;I think what was said was very shallow, generalized and I took offense to it. &nbsp;You hate cops!! &nbsp;What would you do if a tragedy struck? &nbsp;Would you want police then? &nbsp;Yeah, there are some sorry cops but there are a hell of alot of good ones too. &nbsp;Tim I know you said not all cops but there is alot of anger in what you wrote. &nbsp;If everyhting you say is true about the police in your county or whatever. &nbsp;You need to make a stand for what is right.
&nbsp;I worked my a$$ off for an education and my badge. &nbsp;If I have offended you. &nbsp;I am sorry but I could not let that lie. &nbsp;I had to get it off of my chest. &nbsp;Man, that is the last thing I expected coming from you two.
By the way Ken!! &nbsp;You are right I am glad this came up. &nbsp;I also see what I needed too!!!
Gilbert Thompson

Hey Ken,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Be sure you don't give up our secret BLUE CODE signals. &nbsp;We wouldn't be as secretive and effective then. &nbsp;Ya know the ones on the movies &nbsp;HA!HA! &nbsp;I have heard it all now.
Gilbert Thompson

well sorry if I offended but I have my reasons I could rant on all day if I wanted to, but you tell me you have a cop pull you over for cutting through a parking lot to beat a traffic signal and next you know their tearing your car apart and theifing your belongings and the belongings of others that were in you car and youll see things from a differant light, I watched a female officer try on and pocket a bottle of my mothers cheap perfume that fell out of her purse, there was ten of them making a big joke and pocketing all my stuff, all for going to through a parking lot, "You need to make a stand for what is right." humm tried that, I got blocked by a blue wall and a judge, like I said I could go on but Ill leave it at that

any event back to the topic at hand, this is nothing knew for IL, people get arrested here all the time for alligators because according to IL there endangered, not threatning, endangered, last year there was a bunch of people with western hogs at the Tinley show that got busted then they had to give them back I forget what that was all about, ID the species wrong or something if I rember correctly, alll I can say is if your into repiltes and thinking of moving here DONT and if you do live in fear, we have all the permits but they dont even protect your animals, i have known people with those permits that had their animals taken, the state was found to be wrong and they got what was left of their animals back, according to the law the dept of ag has to have a qualified insitution to keep and maintain the animals they confiscate for the duruation of the court procedings, in some of the cases I know of that institunion was in a rubbermaid tub on the floor of the arresting officers basement, no heat nothing, animals just sat there suffered and died, its a shame there is no reason for any of this

Evan, Ill-annoy classifies alligators as potentially dangersous. As such, they are prohibited under the Dangerous Animals Act. They are still listed on the Federal ESA, so, by default, they are also governed by the Illinois Endangered Species Protection Act.

As for the western hogs, they're a threatened species in Illinois, so I can see where the problem arises. For the same reason, it's not advisable to keep eastern indigos if you live in Florida.

Vendors need to familiarize themselves with the laws of the state (at least) that they're doing the show in. For those that knew the law, and got busted, I have no sympathy. Their greed not only got them in hot water, it also gave the entire herp industry a black eye.

There's things that shouldn't have happened, of course. The bearded dragons/aquaculture license immediately comes to mind. The vehicle and bag searches should have also been limited to those people arrested.. The detention of everyone was not illegal, but could have been handled in a better manner.

Jason, using the same pseudoreasoning that leads to the anti-cop rhetoric, what would be the difference if someone were to pick a race or ethnic group that they have had limited bad experiences with, and make broad, innacurate generalizations about them (ie, racism)?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">, what would be the difference if someone were to pick a race or ethnic group that they have had limited bad experiences with, and make broad, innacurate generalizations about them (ie, racism)?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You mean like the "Racial Profiling" that is tought and common place in aw enforcement?

Pot calling the kettel in that one.

Mike, I did not ask for a red herring.

The question still stands. Now then, can you answer the question without using pseudoreasoning?