Lee Watson Swap Bust

Gilbert,

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think what was said was very shallow, generalized and I took offense to it.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Good, I am glad you took offense to it. spam_It shows that you still have morals and ethics to serve and protect the way it was meant to be done.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What would you do if a tragedy struck?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I already know what I would do because I have done it. spam_Ask the victims from the WTC how I helped out. spam_I am willing to bet it is far more than you did for them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You need to make a stand for what is right.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I do, I vote every time an issue is up. spam_Especially when its time to vote on local officials that lead this ring of thieves.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I worked my a$$ off for an education and my badge. spam_If I have offended you.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Very cool and so did I. spam_But I took no offense to your post as you are stating your opinions and you and everyone here is entitled to. spam_




Ken,

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know which incident you're referring to (California), and I really wouldn't qualify what took place as a beating, although the officer could have shown a bit more restraint. To begin with, the kid split the officer's head open just above the ear. Then, when he was handcuffed, the kid grabbed the officer by the family jewels. By no means am I supporting the fact that he struck him after the cuffs were on- that much is inexcusable. Once the cuffs are on, the game is over, and he should have just stepped back. What I am saying, though, is that there is more to that story than the little snippet that made it to the 11 o'clock news.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ok lets add to the truth. spam_The cop split his head when he tackled the kid in the parking lot. spam_Who by the way has a mental impairment that interferes with the auditory input and translations to cognitive responses. spam_The kid never hit him in the head. spam_And wasn't this over a minor traffic ticket where Rambone had to get his way based on his Racial Profiling of the kid? spam_They where parked filling up with gas when Rambone pulled up. spam_I think youshould have said "The officer should have shown complete restraint." The kid was cuffed and Rambone clearly drilled him in the face. spam_One question remains though, will any of his fellow officers have the nads to say that in court to help rid the force of these kinds of riff raff. spam_Most likely NOT. spam_

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What would you propose to deter folks from breaking the law? Or shall we just turn it into a free for all? Driving 50 in a residential, take a corner a little to hard, and wipe out a bunch of kids waiting for their school bus?...no problem.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Hummm, why not start with all the unsolved murder cases, drug rings, robberies, car jackers, crack dealers, hookers, missing children, got the point or shall I continue with the list?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes Tim, there are a few bad apples in law enforcement, but they represent a very small minority.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
So step up sooner and weed them out faster. spam_Say long before they retire. spam_What are YOU willing to do to stop them? spam_Would you be willing to be labeled a "Rat"?

Last but not least by far,
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tim. Hopefully, you'll be able to understand my perspective, and why it got under my skin.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I do understand and I do sympathize for the few honest ones left on the force. spam_But you must understand that I was being specific about the ones I know of and not you or the list of names you mentioned.

OK,

We're getting pretty far afield here, aren't we? &nbsp;What has most of this to do with the herp community at all? &nbsp;More specifically, what does any of this have to do with the business practices of anyone, or was this whole thread more properly placed in the General Discussion area? &nbsp;After all, I don't think anyone has called Mr. Watson's practices into question here.

Even if it is moved though, do we really need to be arguing point/counterpoint about whether all police are corrupt? &nbsp;My brother-in-law is a cop in Pheonix (just laying out all possible points of bias on my part).

I understand (and share) the passion you all have for this subject, but really . . .this isn't the place for it. &nbsp;Of course, I'm a nobody, just one voice among many; feel free to ignore all of this at your leisure.

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Hello again,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I will say a few more things and leave the cop issue alone. &nbsp;Lee is a really good guy and deserves our support. &nbsp;He doesn't deserve to get side tracked like this. &nbsp;
&nbsp;I appologize for the anger in a few previous post. &nbsp;I am just a firm believer in good and hold on to what I believe in. &nbsp;As far as a dirty cop. &nbsp;I have spent alot of hours to take the jobs of dirty cops. &nbsp;Nothing pisses me of more than a dirty cop. &nbsp;I know they are out there because I have been a thorn in a few sides. &nbsp;To answer a few questions. &nbsp;If I were there and saw another cop violate anothers civil rights or break the law. &nbsp;It is a fact, that I would arrest them on the spot at whatever force was deemed proper. &nbsp;I would do this after the situation was under control. &nbsp;If these things have really happened to some of you. &nbsp;I think you should take it to a Federal level and I don't mind helping as much as I can. &nbsp;
I think education, being in a good physical condition and proper raising from childhood are the keys to a good cop.
&nbsp;I also think our job is to Protect and Serve. &nbsp;I do this and have great pride in it. &nbsp;I have been involved in things I still have nightmares about to this day and still will until the day I die. &nbsp;A few know what I am refering too. &nbsp;
I don't do this job to be a overwhelming power freak that gets off by pushing other people around. &nbsp;However I know the types. &nbsp;I do this job to do my best to make a difference. &nbsp;I am the same man with the badge as I am without it. &nbsp;I think it is very important not to forget where a man comes from. &nbsp;I hope this makes sense.
Lee, I promise not to get on anymore speeches and stick to the issues at hand. &nbsp;I just had to finish saying what lied beneath.
Thanks,
Gilbert Thompson

you know I've been in the reptile buisness for a couple years now, and by no way an authority on herp laws. but I have been out to the swap a few times to know what goes on out there and seen and heard the horror storys of people buying reptiles that are sick or die shortly after they bring them home. Did anybody take the time to read the newspaper article stating it was an ongoing investigation of poisionous snakes that all lead back to Lee's swap. I hate to see anyone buisness get hurt, and it was probably handled wrong the way the law enforcement handled it. but the peolpe who were busted and Lee got what they deserved.

Ken if you want to bail from this discussion go for it but I think youd be better to stay and read, I know it has gotten a little side tracked from the origanal topic of Lees swap, however I dont think anyone has missed any of the points nor is it any differant then everyday conversation, if you spoke to some of us about this over the phone the conversation probally wouldnt go much differant then it has within this thread,

in any event Ken and Gilbert dont dismiss what me and others are saying about our dislike for law enforcment as nothing more then a bunch of bigotry, we have our reasons, one of the problems within law enforcment is the denial that I am seeing alot of right here, you guys are involved in law enforcement one way or the other and say your all good guys I dont doubt that espacially you Ken I have known you for a couple years, its easier for you guys to make a change then us, when I had my little run down with the law I tried to do something but was warned to leave the issue alone and be happy with the fact that I have no trace or record of the incident and that if I didnt I wasnt going to be a happy camper for a very long time, this warning came from a judge, you guys have the power to make change instead of yelling how wrong we are, listen and learn, I wasnt born hating law enforcment, the cops I have watched violate the law they were supposed to be protecting taught me to feel this way, I was like many other white people was singled out after the bigot cops in NJ and there illegal search and seizures made national headlines, it was all hispanic and black people they were messing with I seen them pull over atleast 50 of them in the 5 yrs I lived next to the NJ border and rip everyone of their cars apart, make their children stand along side busy interstates while they shown them how the cops in NJ liked to treat minorities, women with infants forced to stand there for hours while the circus ripped through their cars and violated their rights, that finally made national headlines and guess what they did, pull over and did the same thing to every white person they could so they could run back to the papers and say look "were not a bunch of bigots we are harrasing and violating the rights of white people as well(now that it was brought to our attention we hadnt prior)" thats bigotry Ken, its easier for you guys to do something and for you guys to sit back and say take it to the federal level, one of us trys to go against a cop and well have every cop in the state after us, but in any event back to the topic at hand and I dont think theres anything wrong with getting side tracked a little because in everday life our conversatons would be no differant

Even as far as the hognoses go, I asked my g/f freind about it and the deal last year at the tinley show was the guy was from out of state and he was lagally allowed to bring them within IL and sell them, out of state residents could legally buy them however IL residents could not due to them being native, they took his animals and he got them back but the sad thing is its another case of the law enforcment not even knowing the laws, I had forgetton about it but at the Tinly show last year we spoke to some of the officers that were sitting outside the front door going into the show, we were asking them about restriction on retptiles and the laws governing them, they ONLY thing they were certain about was "its illegal to own or posses a snake over 6ft in length" that was it, and they are not even right there, its illegal to have a 6ft+ snake in a retail shop noyt private ownership beyond that they didnt know the differance of any species, the guy we spoke with wasnt even sure if crocs were illegal, it was a joke,

its a shame Lee runs a good show, hes a great guy and to have to see him go through this is sad, very sad, you know my email address anyway we can help Lee let us know

i have a question...
Lee, how could you not know that people had venemous animals at your OWN reptile swap? spam_i don't mean to bust your chops, but come on!! spam_and baby turtles?? spam_i know it's difficult to find a turtle that is 4" and is swimming in a big tub with a whole slew of other <4" turtles on top of a table (or even underneath it). spam_lee, i don't know you, have never been to one of your shows and have only merely heard about it and i'm not trying to come across all high and mighty, i'm just questioning what no one else has. spam_do you walk around your own reptile swap with your eyes closed? spam_or do you turn the other cheek? spam_or are your vendors just that good at being deceptive? spam_and another question, if they are that good at being deceptive, will you invite them to vend at your swap ever again? spam_and if they aren't deceptive directly to you, then i guess they will be at your swap. spam_and the question is, will they be breaking the laws again (no matter how ridiculous or stupid they may be) and if so, will you eventually be responsible for their illegal actions.
sorry to pose all these questions and i don't have the time to make them all politically correct and less standoff-ish (i have a butt-load of school work to do). spam_but i would like to know your take on them.
thanks lee, jb

Just wanted to point out for compaq, leave your full name or your post will be deleted.

Darin,

you are right, I wasn't trying to place judgement on the appropriateness of the law, just to point out that sometimes we try like heck to make conections on things when in fact no connection is really needed.

Evan,

Are you saying that no state has the authority to require you to have any permits to sell any CB non native non threatened animal? because thats the way I read your post.

Steve Schindler

Okay guys. I am no expert. Just a guy who loves reptiles and enjoys buying them and even sometimes selling a few. My major concern after reading all the posts in here is, shouldn't we be sticking together. If teh laws are bad or unfair, then we should be looking at ways to change them. I do not live in Il, but do have friends who have told me horror stories about their herp laws.One friend who can legally catch snake in Texas (venomous) has told me he will not come to WI through IL. He says even though he is traveling through the state, if he is stopped with any venomous he will be fined and the animals confiscated. I think Lee could possibly make the laws available to those who sell their because many do come from out of state. It would only take a simple sign stating the herp laws in IL and everyone would have to sign a form when they buy a table saying they will abide by Il laws. This would show that Lee is trying to stay above board and that he is making an effort to be certain that those vendors have been informed. I do feel that the enforcement people who busted the show were way out of line in their tactics and that the entire situation could have been handled much more tactfully.
I also think that there times when you have to break a law if you want to have snakes. Some cities have such strict laws that even having one corn snake breaks the law. I would never get rid of my animals. They are family and I have had most of them for many years.

Oh well just some of my thoughts, whether you agree or not.

Thanks
George G

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jbuncc @ Sep. 19 2002,22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i have a question...
Lee, how could you not know that people had venemous animals at your OWN reptile swap? spam_i don't mean to bust your chops, but come on!! spam_and baby turtles?? spam_i know it's difficult to find a turtle that is 4" and is swimming in a big tub with a whole slew of other <4" turtles on top of a table (or even underneath it). spam_lee, i don't know you, have never been to one of your shows and have only merely heard about it and i'm not trying to come across all high and mighty, i'm just questioning what no one else has. spam_do you walk around your own reptile swap with your eyes closed? spam_or do you turn the other cheek? spam_or are your vendors just that good at being deceptive? spam_and another question, if they are that good at being deceptive, will you invite them to vend at your swap ever again? spam_and if they aren't deceptive directly to you, then i guess they will be at your swap. spam_and the question is, will they be breaking the laws again (no matter how ridiculous or stupid they may be) and if so, will you eventually be responsible for their illegal actions.
sorry to pose all these questions and i don't have the time to make them all politically correct and less standoff-ish (i have a butt-load of school work to do). spam_but i would like to know your take on them.
thanks lee, jb</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I am under the impression that turtles under four inches are legal if sold for educational purposes. &nbsp;There is no reason a dealer/breeder couldn't have them there then!