Lee Watson Swap Bust

OK, limit the discussion to the raid and let the general discussion on law enforcement fade out here.

This whole thread will likely get moved to the GBD forum anyway, so be prepared for it when it happens.

oh, a quick note on the cop issue...
i think criminals deserve to get the $h!+ kicked out of them. spam_especially if they are running from the cops. spam_i say pull out your gun and shoot them in the leg! spam_or ram their car and make it do a couple of flips into a ditch! spam_cops should use whatever force is necessary to protect their own lives and the lives of the law abiding citizens in this country while upholding the laws they have sworn to enforce. spam_yeah, i've been profiled too. spam_a few years ago when i was still in high school, i had a few stickers on the back of my car and i was always out late at night with my friends. spam_we'd go catch a late night movie or just run out to taco bell and grab something to eat. spam_well, because i was young, had stickers on my windshield, and was out late, i was pulled over at least once a week and searched about 1 of every 3 times. spam_i was always polite and extremely respectful ("yes sir", "no sir", and i was never condescending "i pay your salary"). spam_also, the cops never found a thing, know why? spam_because i've never drank a drop of alcohol, never tried a single illegal drug (and never used a prescription drug or OTC drug in a manner other than what i am supposed to) or even smoked a cigarette. spam_hell, i didn't even eat meat at the time. spam_but i was still searched at least once on a monthly basis because of how i looked and how i presented myself. spam_but do i have a distaste for the cops, no! spam_personally, i'm willing to be pulled over for nothing and searched in exchange for the knowledge that once in a while, they'll actually catch some @hole that thinks the law doesn't apply to him/her. spam_my time isn't that precious that i can't spare 15 minutes for piece of mind.  oh, and once i grew up a little and scraped the stickers off of my car and started buying clothes that fit, i don't get pulled over anymore because i don't fit the "delinquent" profile any longer.
another scenario, our place was broken into about 2 months ago and we had cops all over it pretending to be looking for this and that. spam_there was a perfect set of finger prints on the window and we had to beg to have them lifted and the guy came out and did a crappy job on it and WE had to follow up on it and find out if they had a match. spam_they said the prints were smudged and so an ID would have been impossible (again, they were perfect and we suspected that the work involved to catch the SOB that broke into our place and stole a few thousand dollars worth of stuff wasn't worth their time). spam_an obvious crock of __. spam_but do i hate them for for it? spam_no! spam_because as crooked, lazy, arrogant, and stupid as some are, that does not incapsulate all of them (or even a majority of them). spam_know how i know that? spam_because if you stop and have a conversation with a cop, or buy their meal when you see them in a restaurant when they're on break, or just stop and tell them that you appreciate what they do, it's easy to see that they are good genuine people who care (in general). spam_i also know that because i wore big clothes, a backwards hat, listen to loud music and go to the ever dreaded "raves" that the media likes to make sound like something they aren't and i'm still a good person. spam_just because someone holds a membership in a group that is perceived as good or bad, doesn't make them automatically that way. spam_we should all know that general perceptions and biases are asinine and unfounded and are generally fueled further into the realm of ridiculousness by the media. spam_shouldn't we? spam_i mean, we do all keep snakes, and all snakes are poisonous and have giant fangs. spam_and of course, the ones that aren't are the cute little ball pythons that reach 10ft and strangle kids and eat them, right?
take this and run with it, rip it to shreds, poke holes in the argument, i don't care, it's how i feel and it's what i know.
peace

sorry webslave, i was busy typing that loooong quick note while you posted that.  my appologies...  jb

I want to address a bunch of these topics that people have addressed.

Jason- what you are talking about is Chad Fuchs at last years Tinley Park show who had improper paperwork and had his hognose seized. He got the animals back after straightening things out with the authorities. The reality: Western Hognose are native and protected in the state of Illinois. Easy problem to avoid, just don't bring them there to sell or arrange for correct paperwork in advance. Permits for hognose are free of charge in Illinois and take about a week to get.

Compaq-first off post your full name. Second, we don't need you in the animal biz with that attitude. "They got what they deserved" what a lousy thing to say. I'm sure that you have never made a mistake in your life and never wished that you were given a second chance. The kid who was arrested and will probably end up jail is 21. He was not a vendor, not selling venomous and not a bad kid. How would you feel. Wouldn't you want a chance?

Jonathan Brady- Like you said, you have never been and don't know. So you can stop bashing Lee, who has done more for this hobby and business than you likely ever will. You try running a show with 40-50 vendors, 100 tables and 1000-2000 customers in an afternoon. Do you have any idea how crazy things get? Give me a break! Do you think he can look at every single thing? Not to mention the fact that the one venomous snake out of thousands of animals in discussion was not on the table! It was hidden! Get your facts straight before you go insulting people. You were not there. I was.

Steve- unless a state authors and adopts a law in specific regards to permiting how can it regulate non native non endangered animals. And even so I am talking about "exotic" species from outside the USA. The USDA regulates native animals. The USFW regulates import and export. The FDA regulates public health and welfare. When all three agencies came and looked at my captive bred non native and exotic snakes, they dismissed me from any permit or license needed and told me I was all set and in no violation of any laws, state, local or federal. I talked at length with agents of all three agencies as well as the state herpetologist who told me he was very sorry to have to conduct this type of raid but due to the lack of self regulation by dealers he had no choice. He was a very nice guy, complemented me on my animals and was on his way.

George G-Lee is not responsible for the vendors or customers at his show knowing the laws. Every person that conducts business is responsible for knowing the laws that apply to said business. Lee goes out of his way every show telling dealers if they need to remove animals from tables. He has also made available on every occasion that I am aware of when somebody asked the law concerning said topic. This is his business, he does not want this to happen.

Ken-Lee was privy to the alligator cases in court as he was involved and followed them through. He told me that eventually they were dismissed and the law is no longer applicable to those animals. Also, as of several years ago, when Florida began allowing hunting permits again on alligators and recinded their status, they are no longer an endangered species at the federal level. They are protected in other states where they occur, but to be federally protected means that an animal is protected within it's entire range.

To all of you who are reading this thread. The posts about police and ethics are not what we are talking about and inapropriate. The whole point is, this happens all over this country of ours. We have a business/hobby/love, of something that the majority of the population finds distasteful or neutral on. It is because of this lack of concern that it is very easy for any agency of government to go after us as they know we have no popular support. Nobody wants a pedophile on the streets of their neigborhood. None of us want a drunk driver to kill our loved ones. People have passion on these subjects and pursue them. We are involved in an industry that the majority does not care about and because of that each of us needs to work harder, yell louder and make ourselves be heard before we lose all of rights to keep any animals. I hope somebody will see the light. I am now done with this thread too. Thanks for listening. Anyone who needs to contact me can feel free to email me. Evan Stahl

Tim,
   Thank you for the email.  I appreciate that and it makes me feel alot better.  I also appreciate what you do as well.  I am glad we got it cleared up because you have some nice animals.
Thanks,
Gilbert Thompson

hi even, i can appreciate your rebuttle and i see that your position is a firm one.  but the fact still remains that one of the vendors had "in excess of 600 baby and undersize turtles".  how do you not notice that and the other violations that were cited?
and when i was referring to the venemous animals, i wasn't necessarily referring the one person who had one venemous snake, i was referring to the insinuation that the vast majority of the venemous animals that the paper mentioned were reported to have some tie with lee's reptile swap.  he has had to have seen that (if it did indeed take place).  and you answered that, you said he walked around and asked people to remove animals, so that has been taken care of.  but now i'm wondering about the turtles and whether or not lee will invite back the vendors that knew the rules and decided to break them anyway, either blatantly in front of lee's face (challenging his rules and the written law) or secretly under the table behind his back (thereby risking his livelihood and reputation).  personally, i wouldn't want those people back, but i'm not lee so i'll have to wait and see if he responds and if so, what he says.
thanks for your input evan and i meant no harm and intended no hard feelings, just had a few questions.  have a good one man, jb

Jonathan,

Unless I'm mistaken, and I may well be, I thought the implication being made was that vendors were using Mr. Watson's show to make deals for animals that they then dealt in at other times and places, thereby making the swap meet a clandestine conspiring place to make illegal trades.  Again, I could be wrong, but IF that was the case, just exactly how is Mr. Watson, or ANY show sponser/promoter supposed to stop that?

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

I have been talking about the legitimate offenses, like venomous animals and native wildlife. I would remind you again that the baby turtles were not a violation of any animal law and that the dept of agriculture and fish and wildlife could care less as it is not in their jurisdiction. The baby turtle citations were nothing more than a joke. It is a 25 year old law that has never been enforced and is still not being enforced. There are plenty of pet stores in the state of IL that did not have their baby turtles and were not ticketed for having them. It is an example of the worst kind of selective enforcement, again, being used to damage this industry and Lee's show. Nothing more. Salmonella? Over 2/3rds of the chicken in the grocery store you shop at has potentially lethal levels of the bacteria on it and they will harm you if you do not properly cook the chicken. That is the government telling us that. When was the last time that there was a recorded case of a human being getting salmonella bacteria poisoning from a turtle? The sponge on your kitchen sink has potentially lethal levels. Meat in this country that is improperly handled kills us every day, but they can't give one single incidence of a reptile related case! FACT! I am tired of 25 year old myths! It has also been common place, as suggested in court cases on the very subject over 10 years ago, that baby turtles could be sold with disclaimers outlining the law and the proper uses for them. Every vendor at the Streamwood show had this info posted by these turtles. The government has been satisfied with that for the past 10 years. They fail to mention that in the info posted. The vendor you keep mentioning with the "600" turtles is a friend of mine. 99% of those turtles are sold wholesale to pet shops and others vendors. None of these resellers have been cited or harrassed as he was! Selective enforcement is just as illegal as any other criminal act! Enforce a law evenly or not at all. Evan Stahl

cool, questions answered. &nbsp;thanks! &nbsp;<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
jb

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When was the last time that there was a recorded case of a human being getting salmonella bacteria poisoning from a turtle? The sponge on your kitchen sink has potentially lethal levels. Meat in this country that is improperly handled kills us every day, but they can't give one single incidence of a reptile related case!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Evan, I'm sure you meant well with that line of comment and while the point is essentially true, the specifics are not.

"Facts Shmacts, you can use facts to prove anything even remotely true."- H. Simpson

It is entirely possible to get a salmonella infection from bacteria that originated in a turtle. The bacteria is a naturally occuring gut fauna &nbsp;and it is much easier to spread in a liquid or moist environment.

It is also a much MUCH weaker strain of the bacertia and still in lower densities than can be found in many raw meats, chicken especially and the usual clinical effect on a healthy adult is so slight as to go un-noticed. Usually just a slight feeling of nausea and loss of appetite occasionally a little bit of vomiting, very mild- far less severe than most flus.

However, the fact it is not generally life threatening is not identical to it being non-existant. And simply because it is weaker and doesn't get reported as often as more severe sources- or is easily overlooked in favor of more severe sources (medical proffessionals seem to look to chicken and other meats first and foremost, if you've eaten any in the last week or so, it's usually listed as the cause, asking if you drank some turtle water while siphoning a tank doesn't even occur to most of them) does not mean that it is impossible that a human death could potentially &nbsp;happen in the future. Take Brown Widow spiders- they rarely produce anything signifigant but there was an occasion where an individual on a 24/7 dialisis machine was envenomated and died... extreme circumstances but it is a human fatality.

By changing "mild and uncommon" to "non-existant and impossible" you are performing the same type of action those government &nbsp;officials responsible for that rediculous twenty five year old law did... Slightly and subtley altering facts to signifigantly alter the mind-set of the reader.

If one person dies from X disease one year... and two die the next... That's a 100% increase. It's easy for specific numbers to be lost in a sea of ratios and percentages.

However your point was substantially correct. There is little if any reason to continue the enforcement of this law (especially because it virtually never happens) but changing it would be difficult. It 1) Would be an admittal that it may not have been a decent resptriction to begin with and 2) it is still used today in order to add additional charges onto the list of people being penalized for other actions (it's most common useage that I have seen, much like laws prohibiting sodomy are only enforced when rape is an issue).

The laws surrounding it should &nbsp;be corrected... as should the individual laws of virtually every state when it comes to herps... Most the time the competent individuals working for the state doing field studies or in the position that you mentioned of "State Herpetologist" know this very well... but try and get a legislative body to &nbsp;do anything about it... That's the hard part.