Bill Cagle Snakes- My experience

Hi everyone! I have not posted to this site before but I am a member of Clay English's RTB forum and I am relatively active on that forum. I now have 8 snakes and I have had boas for some years now. My snakes have never had any problems and temps, humidity, and caging has always been excellent.

At the May 2008 reptile show, I purchased 2 snakes from Bill Cagle. A north Brazilian red tail (4 months old) and a hypo-suri (1.5 - 2 months old). I was very pleased with the animals and very pleased with Bill Cagle. We talked for well over 2 hours and I left feeling really good about the sale. Shortly after, during feeding, I couldn't get the hypo-suri to eat. Since he was so young, I felt I needed to get him to eat. So I called Bill Cagle, only to find out the number he gave me was disconnected. I emailed him and told him the situation. Then I got on Clay's site and asked for advice, which was great and got the suri to eat. Now the suri eats every week with no issues and is doing great. Bill emailed me back and told me to feed live and gave me his cell phone number. Since I had already gotten him to eat f/t, I didn't try calling Bill.

The problem started with the Brazilian (Sabbath). First, I noticed mites on him. Never seen mites before, so I needed advice about how to deal with them. So I got advice on Clay's site. I ordered Provent-a-mite (PAM) and I started soaking Sabbath, gave a different smaller cage with only paper towels and a water dish. Never saw many mites on him but continued soaking him everyday.

After I noticed the mites on him, I walked in the bedroom (my quarantine room) and saw Sabbath bubbling at the mouth and not closing his mouth. So I got him out and looked at him. This was May 22. On May 24, 2008, I took him to the vet. She said he had a respiratory infection. He freely gave a fecal in the vet's hand. The fecal indicated worms and an overload of protozoa. She said she didn't see any mites on him and wondered if the bugs I saw were ticks because he had big bumps on his back near his spine (now). She prescribed metronidazole, febendazole, and fortaz. I had never given oral or sub-coetaneous shots before, so I had to learn.

I tried to call Bill Cagle now on his cell phone and he would never answer. I called him for weeks, 2-3 times a day leaving messages. I didn't send any emails because he said he doesn't have a computer to check them. I finally emailed him telling him about the snake on May 28. The email said:

"Hi Bill,

I have tried to call you several times. I am upset with the fact you will not answer the phone. This makes me feel like you knew something was wrong with this snake and you feel guilty about it. I hope this is not the case but when you avoid a situation, then I can't help but feel this way. I would like to know more information about the background of the North Brazilian. Also, he is very sick and he is on 3 medicines. 2 oral and 1 injection. Everday he looks worst and I don't know why. I hope he can pull through especially since I just spent almost 200 at the vet for him in addition to what I paid you. I was so happy when I got home about the sale but now I wish I would have bought elsewhere. I got the suri to eat and he is eating well. Not only is the Brazilian sick, he is also infested with mites. I ordered provent-a-mite but I am afraid that it will kill him because he is too weak. I don't want him to die. I want to get him healthy again and have a great beautiful snake but I NEED HELP to get him back to normal. I have never dealt with everything he is going through. While I am not shying away from the experience, I don't want to do something wrong.

Please Contact me.

Star"


Since I took Sabbath to the vet, he has refused to eat (May 24). So I fed him a live mouse on June 4 but his prior meal was May 14. He ate. On June 1st, he had a perfect shed, which I was excited about.

On June 18th, I noticed central nervous system (CNS) symptoms. I went into the bedroom (quarantine room) and saw Sabbath's head upside down underneath his body. I got him out and his head was ticking. After it stopped, I flipped him over and he righted himself up just fine. Then I gave him his medicine. I put him back and he started going up the side of the cage with the top of his head on the glass. It was weird! So I contacted the vet and she told me that it could be a number of things from IBD to heat to a reaction to the meds. I figured it might be the heat because he NEVER leaves the heat. He has been under the heat since May until today. He leaves, gets a drink, and comes right back. Doesn't hide - nothing, just sits under the heat, which is around 88-90 degrees.

On June 9th, Bill Cagle called me finally. We spoke for over an hour on the phone. I told him everything going on with the snake. I read him the vet report. I asked him about the snake, the background. He said he got the snake from Matt White at the show and Matt got him from Eugene Bessett. He gave me Matt's phone number so I could get some background information. I asked Bill if this snake was wild caught or farmed/ranched. Bill also apologized for not calling me back and told me he was out of town for over 3 weeks doing construction work. His wife had the cell phone. I accepted this. He also said that IF the snake died or I had to put him down, he would replace the snake or refund my money. I told him that I honestly just wanted this snake to pull through but thanks for the help and I would keep him updated.

I called Matt White on June 9th. He said Bill did purchase a snake from him and sold it for exactly what I paid for him. I told Matt what was going on with the snake and he said he didn't think that was the snake Bill got from him. He claimed Bill had a bunch of brazilians, which Bill only had one other when I was there. Then we got disconnected and I thought Matt hung up on me. On June 12th, Matt called me back. He asked for a picture of the snake and told me that if the snake dies, he would replace it. I told Matt, no, it was not his responsibility and Bill said he would take responsibility for the snake since I got it from him. I emailed Matt a picture and this is the email back from Matt:
"Not mine. I have never had or owned that snake.
Sorry

Matt White
VMWREPTILES
706-888-6287"

I finally PAM'd his and the hypo-suri's cage on June 29 for mites. I wasn't seeing many mites and I wanted to wait for the RI to be gone. For a while, this snake was eating well and started to look better. The RI left and he overall looked better. Then I noticed he looked swelled. I picked him up and I could hear crackling sounds towards the end of his body. I called my vet again (I am sure she is getting sick of me by now...lol). She said he probably has gas and he might have Crypto, which there is no cure for. I called Bill Cagle and told him about this on June 29th. He actually answered the phone and I was feeling better about him just for that. He also assured me that IF this snake dies or I have to put it down, he will replace it.

On July 2, I looked at Sabbath and he looked like he had lost weight. His tail was way too small and his body still looked swelled or bloated. He had started to refuse to eat again. So on July 7, I fed him a live mouse and he regurged it within 30 minutes or less. In the regurge was also his June 21st meal (hopper mouse) that looked to still be intact. I called the vet again. She said she is leaning more towards crypto now that he is not digesting his meals the way he should be. The test is really expensive and I don’t' have the money for it, but she said there is no cure and it is contagious not only to all 15 animals I have but to my husband and I.

I posted on Clay's site and asked for advice once again about the regurge. I know I need to wait a couple of weeks before feeding but he is a different case. Many people agreed that this snake needed to eat one way or another and to try feeding him within a couple of days. Some people even told me that if I need to euthanize him, not to feel bad since I have done everything I could. These people have been with me since I got him, helping me out and knowing what I have been going through. After this regurge, I really started worrying about having to put this snake down and having a necropsy done on him. I called the vet to ask how much it will cost.

I tried to feed him on the 10th of July and he refused. I made the decision that if he did not eat this past weekend, I would call the vet on the 14th and set the appointment up. However, on Sunday, July 13th, he looked better. He didn't look bloated or anything. I fed him f/t and he hunted that mouse down like he was hungry! I was really excited about him eating. He hasn't regurged but today, he looks swelled and bloated again!

I have tried calling Bill since the 11th and his cellphone no longer works. Bill - if you read this post...PLEASE contact me about this snake.

I don't know what to do with this snake. I don't want to jeopordize my other snakes but I don't want to hastily put him down either. I have 1 Emerald Tree Boa, 1 normal colombian, 1 albino normal, 1 hypo normal, 1 rescued ball python, 1 corn, and the 2 snakes from Bill in quarantine.

This has been my experience and a breeder named Noe Perez from Illinois has spent a great deal of his time helping me with this snake over the phone. He is an awesome person and through him, the vet, and RTB's, I feel I have been able to help this snake as much as I can. Through his recommendations, I talk about this experience on the BOI so others can make a better decision about buying from Bill.

Sorry for the length, but I didn't want to leave anything out.
Star

[quote=
I have tried calling Bill since the 11th and his cellphone no longer works. Bill - if you read this post...PLEASE contact me about this snake.
[/QUOTE]

Star I'm sorry about your issues with Bill, I too have had dealings with him in NC at a show. I did some trading and cash for a hypo het albino which will be put to the test this Fall on the het part. He's a smooth talking guy, nice but once I got home and did some searching I found nothing good. Most were bad dealings or ....snakes with IBD! Do not mix the sick snake with your others, keep him in quarantine room until ALL symptoms are cleared by your vet! Good luck and keep us posted. As for Bill well here is what I caught him doing...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ght=Bill+Cagle

I got an e-mail from a friend, stating that he had gotten several inquiries,
about; me and Cagle being partners.

I seen were another " friend " of mine had stated as such on another post,
concerning the illustrious Cagle.

My other " friend " is out on a trip right now, but I will be contacting him, as
soon as posible to ask why " he made that ASSUMPTION. "

I will try and believe in my heart that; " he simply made a mistake and sure hope that was the case? "

Mine and Bills old wombs will not be reopened here or anywere, but I have not even talked to Billy in nearly 10 years.

I have NO DEALINGS with Bill PERIOD and no animal that I have or sell, has ever and will EVER come from him.

I need this to be cleared up NOW.

I have many references that buy from me and have been very blessed, that
most of my customers are " no nonsense " and are not afraid to pay for quality and " quality is what they get. "

I do not treat illness " I freeze it. "

If it is not right, " it does not leave here. "

If it spits up " it goes to the freezer. "

I have been burned years ago with Sick Boas and I will never do that too anyone else.

It saddens me, that anyone out there would be afraid to buy one of my quality animals, over an ASSUMPTION.

My number is posted on my adds publicly and I am ready to answer any question that anyone has and those who are sending e-mails to one another, need to stop and call or contact me DIRECTLY.

I hope this clears up COMPLETELY, any doubts about me and my association,
with anyone else.

Thanks, John Johnson

Hi John,

I am not familiar with all the breeders and have just recently heard of you. I did not post my experience to bash Bill Cagle or bring you into this experience. I have read everything now about Bill Cagle on fauna. I have found some people like him and others don't.

I have NEVER had a sick snake before and have been working really hard to save him. Everytime I have spoken to Bill about the snake he has been very open and willing to assist. The issue I have with Bill is not being able to get a hold of him when I need to.

His cellphone recently is working again and I have left him a message. I am hoping to hear back from him.

I do not expect people to stop buying snakes from Bill and I am not asking that. When I met Bill, I really liked him. The 2 times I have reached him on the phone, I enjoyed talking to him. Ultimately, I may decide to euthanize the snake if he doesn't die first. My issue is, I don't want to euthanize a snake that has nothing wrong with him but having trouble acclimating to captivity (I am going to assume this snake is an import based on things I have read about imports and people I have spoken to about Bill).

As for quarantine - This snake will never be in with my other snakes. 3 years down the road (if this snake is alive), it will still be in a separate room. I have no intention of breeding this North Brazilian and I have no intention of selling the snake. If he dies, a necropsy will be done so I know what was wrong with him. If he dies, his enclosure, bathing and feeding containers will be destroyed.

The problem I have with euthanizing him right now is - he has not regurged him last meal, I have watched him drink the other night, last night he was not hanging out under the heat but slightly away from it - does this stuff mean he is getting better? I don't know, but I don't want to hastily put a snake down without truly feeling he needs it.

Star

Hi Star,

I'm sorry for all the problems you're having.

First, I must say that I haven't talked to Bill in several years, but I purchased several animals from him and never had a problem with them. This was probably about 3 years ago and the animals are still doing well.
I am disappointed to see the post provided by Jay that shows Bill still advertising normal aberrant boas as jungles or possible jungles. Many people will remember Bill arguing with everyone on the kingsnake boa forum (again, several years ago) about jungles. He could not grasp the concept that there actually is a difference between the proven jungle morph and normal aberrant boas. To see that he is still misleading people on that issue is pathetic. Everyone joked that he should call his own line "Cungles". As I recall, Bill never came back to the kingsnake boa forums.

Regarding your N. Braz, Star....I noticed that in your explanation you say that he will get a drink of water then comes "right back and sits UNDER the heat". What are you using as your heat source? By saying he sits under the heat source, I assume you are using a light bulb or a heat emitter. If he never leaves from under the heat source to thermoregulate, it's a pretty good indication that he is not comfortable with the temps in the rest of his enclosure. Yes...a sick snake is likely to stay near the warmer areas of the enclosure, but not 100%. Do you have a temp gun?

The climbing to the top of the enclosure could be him attempting to get closer to the heat source or trying to get out of a mite infested enclosure because he is constantly being bitten.

True locale boas seem to do much better with belly heat. Plus, they are far more likely to regurge for a variety of reasons than BCI. You definitely fed him too soon after a regurge. The fact that he regurged the hopper and it was still intact approx. 10 days after eating is a problem. Again, it could be that it doesn't have enough heat to properly digest.

Also, the "bloating" could be due to the mouse rotting in his stomach instead of being digested. I hate to beat a dead horse, but this could be from improper heat combined with feeding too soon after a regurge. One reason that it is necessary to wait a couple of weeks to feed again after a regurge, is that the snake needs to heal from the internal trauma and to re-develop the digestive flora/bacteria needed to digest their prey.

Additionally, you have been giving your snake antibiotics to kill a bacterial infection. Unfortunately antibiotics will also kill of large amounts of the beneficial flora in the animals digestive tract that is needed to digest.

It seems that you have several things working against you as you try to save your snake. Heat might be an issue...antibiotics helping with the R.I. but reducing digestion....several regurgitations...plus a mite infestation.

I really doubt your snake has crypto or IBD. Your vet has taken a shotgun approach giving him quite a few drugs for such a sickly snake. I don't trust any vets who without vast amounts of experience with reptiles. In the future, look for a vet that specializes in reptiles.

All that being said...none of this is your fault. I commend you on your strong effort to save your snake! It sounds likely that Bill had just received in a bunch of farmed animals that may have been kept in poor conditions as they were being shipped to the U.S. and you bought one of them. That would explain the parasites your vet found in the fecal and possibly the RI. Bill probably BS'd you about their origin or maybe he really did think that it was the one he picked up from Matt.

My suggestions...

...please get some flexwatt and a thermostat or a rheostat to create heat from under the N. Brazilian's enclosure. You must also have a temperature gun to make sure you are reading the surface temps of the enclosure. A thermometer placed inside the cage will not give you an accurate indication of your enclosure. With a temp gun you can read the temps throughout. Your hypo is thriving because BCI can thrive in conditions that will kill a BCC.

...if the respiratory infection seems cured, stop giving the antibiotics.

...you wrote your post 2 days after your snake ate another mouse. I would bet by now he has regurged again. If not, that's great! If so, please wait 2 weeks to feed again and do not feed a normal sized mouse again. You must feed it something very, very small. If you can't find a live mouse pinky or crawler then buy a frozen one.

...Provent-a-Mite is a great product. I actually spray the enclosures of any incoming snakes as a precaution. Those mites could have been picked up at the show or Bill does have mites at his facility. Continue to it to treat your enclosures. Btw...you aren't spraying it while the snake is in the cage, right?

Good luck. If in fact he doesn't live, make sure you get satisfied by the seller via a refund or another animal. I would think that you might not want another animal from him, but like I said at the beginning of this post, I haven't had any problems with the animals that I have acquired from Bill.

Hi Brett,

First I want to say thanks for the reply! This is my first BCC snake, so this is also a learning experience for me. Let me try to answer some questions for you. I really liked my impression from Bill and I don't blame him for what is going on with the snake, I just wish I could get a hold of him easier for assistance with the snake. I understand that things happen out of control of a breeders hand.

The ambient temperatures are 82 degrees and the warm end are 88-90. I do have a belly heat source and a overhead heat source. My friend has a tempgun that I have used not too long ago on him. I will be closing on my house Thursday. I will order a tempgun for myself after I move (next weekend) so I can make sure it is shipped to the correct address. Sometimes I get him out and he feels much warmer than my hands. Other times, he doesn't feel as warm, but he never feels cool. I have not used Flexwatt because I don't know anything about it. I have been reading a bunch of stuff on it and I want to make sure I completely understand it BEFORE I use it because I don't want to make a bad mistake. I do plan on getting flexwatt and using it. I had never thought about the bloating maybe due to a rotting mouse. The bloating was accompanied this crackling sound in his back end while I was holding him and the vet said that crackling sound was gas. Most of the bloating was seen prior to the regurge so maybe it was rotting. I have read that True red tails like it warmer than your normals. Maybe the temps are not high enough even at 82-88/90?

He doesn't climb to the top of the enclosure. I have not seen any mites on him in over 3 weeks. His enclosure was never mite infested. I used 2 different enclosures for him. I would clean out the enclosure every 2 days and switch out enclosures -placing one outside. I have only seen 2 mites crawling on the paper towels but that was well over a month ago. I PAM'd the other enclosure and put him in that around 3 weeks ago. I waited maybe 8 hours before I put him in (I am too paranoid).

He has only regurged one time. Yes, I did feed him a little too soon. I know that. He did look bloated 2 days after the last feed (hopper mouse), he doesn't look bloated now. He has not regurged this last meal, which is awesome. I have never fed him a normal sized mouse. The time he did regurge was from a small live mouse and I fed him in a separate container, then I picked him up to move him. I do wonder if that caused too much stress on him - me touching him and moving him. I still might wait a little longer before feeding him next time anyways, even with him keeping the hopper down. If he is having trouble digesting - due to his sickness or possible temps - then I want that hopper to be digested before feeding him again.

My vet is Avian and Exotic Animal Hospital in Raleigh, NC. They ONLY work wih exotic animals. They will not see your cat or dog unless it is a tiger or wolf (example). They specialize in snakes and are considered the best place to bring your snakes to the vet in the state of North Carolina. However, I also understand that vets are like doctors and I hate doctors because they always seem like they are guessing.

He was on medicince for exactly one month. His last day of antibiotics was June 22. He has not received any medicine since that day. Maybe the antibitiocs was causing him problems with digestion also. Either way, I want this snake to pull through. I believe the mites are gone. After the month is up - next weekend, I plan on PAM'ing him cage one last time as a preventative measure. I personally don't think he has mites anymore, but I don't want not do this and then 1 egg hatches.

I am happy that you have purchased snakes from Bill with success! While it was nice of him to offer a replacement snake if this one dies, I would just much rather have this snake live. I personally have this thought that IF the snake did have IBD, he would not be doing better today. The RI was really bad and he wouldn't have pulled through if he had IBD (IMO). Also, from what I have read, if the snake has crypto - you can feel the hardening in the snake, which I don't feel it. So, I am hoping that he will pull through. When I got him, he did not look bad. My husband and I looked him over well. I think the RI came on from the mites and stress of moving around so much (especially if he is imported) and reptile shows can't maintain the heat that is required as easily anyways. So, with this being said, I am prepared to learn more to help this snake. The advice you gave was good advice and thanks for that. I WANT to learn more about this snake and I WANT this snake to live.

Thanks again Brett,
I hope this answered some of your questions or thoughts,
Star

Hi Star,
You answered all of my concerns.
You are doing everything correctly and I bet he will be fine. Please give an update in a few weeks to let us know how he is doing. I haven't been on Clay's site in a long time...maybe I will visit there to see any of your updates. Do you have pics of him on that site?
Good luck!

Of course I have pictures there! I acutally took pictures of him on Thursday. He looked good actually! I posted them up there already. This is the same user name that I use on Clay's site. If you look at the pictures, let me know what you think of him! I will keep people updated! Also, I did notice the other night, he was close to the heat but not underneath it. However, he is underneath it right now.

Star

Sorry to steal your thread, but I bought a South Brazilian (amarali) from Bill at the Dixie Reptile Show in Birmingham on June 21. Bill seemed to be a great guy, talked with me for a while and I felt great about my purchase. She ate with gusto on June 22 and June 30. My bca then defecated and went into a shed (which she came out of around Jul 12) and thins have been going downhill since then. She looks thin and has regurged her last two meals (yesterday Jul 22 and on Jul 13.) So far all he has told me to do in an email is "soak her overnight."

I have to run to class now, but I'll be back. It just sucks getting burned

Originally Posted by Let_It_Grow

Sorry to steal your thread, but I bought a South Brazilian (amarali) from Bill at the Dixie Reptile Show in Birmingham on June 21. Bill seemed to be a great guy, talked with me for a while and I felt great about my purchase. She ate with gusto on June 22 and June 30. My bca then defecated and went into a shed (which she came out of around Jul 12) and thins have been going downhill since then. She looks thin and has regurged her last two meals (yesterday Jul 22 and on Jul 13.) So far all he has told me to do in an email is "soak her overnight."

I have to run to class now, but I'll be back. It just sucks getting burned

Hi Bo,

I believe I held that boa you bought at the show in May here in NC. I thought it was pretty, but this pattern on the North Brazilian blew me away. I had a great impression of Bill also at the show! Well, let me ask you a few things. What are you temperatures at? What is your humidity at? I would not soak the boa overnight because the temperature can drop too low for him. If I remember correctly, that boa is very young, still a baby, right? What size prey are you feeding it? I believe these boas are imports. If that is the case, you may have trouble with acclimating him to captivity, which is what I am thinking I am having trouble with. My boa ate great the first few meals also, but then he quit eating for a while. Next time your boa goes to the bathroom, I would have a vet test the fecal for you. If it is wild caught, he might have internal parasites. Also, wait at least two weeks before feeding him again and give him a fuzzie mouse (something really small). I am sorry you have to go through this. How many snakes do you have?

Well, let me give an update here on mine. A few days ago, after Brett's post, I decided to up the temperatures in my house by 2 degrees to see what kind of effect it would have on the brazilian. The warm end was close to 92 and the cool end around 84. You know what!!! That snake has been active and not sitting under the heat since that night!!! Maybe the heat was a little too low for him. Maybe he wanted an ambient temp of 84. I don't know but once in a while when I check on him, he is in a difference place. I don't know if this is good or bad yet, but I feel it is good. Here is a couple pictures of him.

I took these a couple of days ago.




Star