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Old 05-08-2008, 03:00 PM   #1
JeffnDes
Adeno Thoughts

I have sat by for a long time on the sidelines in these groups. I have seen the witch hunts and slanderous remarks towards certain individuals. The incorrect and misinformed rumors that have run ramped at other people expense, it saddens me and sickens me. Over what? Self proclaimed professionals and want to be doctors with ego's the size of Texas. The madness has to stop.

The people who I feel bad for are the new up and comers in this hobby. You guys are taking a simple and enjoyable hobby and turning in to a science project gone bad. I can only imagine what new people must think coming in to these groups. With AV being drilled in their heads and the slanderous remarks towards breeders that "supposedly inbreed and have puppy mill tactics, and killing animals that don't perform", it's enough to make anyone that's in the market and looking for a dragon run away and never look back. Is this what we want?

And then we have the people that take in all of the information they read on these groups and then come to us (the breeders) and ask if we test our breeders. I don't lie to people when they ask and my reply is always the same "No we don't because we don't feel it is a problem". Well ten out of ten people that have asked us that question did so because they were interested in a particular dragon we had for sale. I can honestly say that we have never lost a sale on a dragon when that question was asked. Basically, when people see something they want, they are going to get it and take their chances with AV. throwing caution to the wind and throwing everything that has been hammered into their poor heads right out the window. And all the hard work that was spent trying to conform people goes right out the window when they see a morph that they have been waiting for. And the most amazing part about it is, it doesn’t even matter who the breeder is, it could be Dachiu's, Sandfire DR, Myself, or Joe Freaking Blows Backyard Sewer Dragons, It doesn’t matter, when people see something they want, they get it!

Now, All that being said, I am personally sick and tired of seeing every single thread turning into a AV bash fest. When someone asks a question about a certain morph somehow someway the subject turns into an AV topic, it's amazing, and it never fails! Now I would like to address some of the things I feel like addressing.

"We have weakened the genetics of these dragons simply by inbreeding them for whatever particular morph that we please, & THAT is playing with nature & is not fair. It is no wonder they are susceptible to disease & virus. It is not ethical to knowingly pass on disease. If we were to observe them in the wild they most likely would have very little health problems. Sure, there are always babies born that don't make it due to some type of genetic problem, but definitely not the percentage that we are causing"

Tracie, with all due respect, I am sure that there is plenty of inbreeding going on in the wild. Just because they are wild, does that mean they will never have contact with the 20 other siblings that all hatched in the same exact spot as they did, or maybe younger or older siblings or possibly their parents that probably all live within 100 square yards of one another? Comparing domestic dragons that we breed and wild dragons in Australia is like comparing Apples and Oranges. Look at sheer size alone, wild dragons are lucky to hit 300 grams. Virtually every adult dragon in the U.S. is well over that. We must be doing something right. What percentage of genetic problems are we actually causing? I'm just curious because overall our percentage of animals that don't thrive is very low.

"I get frustrated & angry because of the breeders from the past that are still breeding now that have known positives in their colonies but refuse to do anything about it. That is why I get angry because it is not simply my opinion it is the recommendation from Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz not to breed positives as it is unethical."


All this is, is an opinion and nothing more. The Dr's that you so frequently refer to still aren't convinced of their findings. They are merely making suggestions based on their limited experience. What are Lou Ann Miller's findings? My question is, if inadequate research hasn't been done why is the DVM making suggestions? Their opinions are simply that, their opinions with no scientific facts to support it.

What about the fact that Adeno is found in all birds, mammals, reptiles, and of course humans. Yet we don't run out and have them tested. Our children get Adenovirus yet we don't stop breeding or close our schools. If this is such an epidemic why do we only see the statements of two Dr.'s?
And what are the current stances of these Dr's? How do they feel about this situation at this point in time? We have no solid information concerning Adenovirus in Bearded Dragons so we have a self selected few who are out there promoting educated opinions not based on fact. This being the case, aren't we opening up Pandora's box for those who would gladly eliminate Bearded Dragons as a "Companion Animal"? Screaming that the
sky is falling is a great way to allow the "Devil's Advocate" to step in and and use this alleged problem to eliminate yet another species that we as Reptile Hobbyist can maintain and actually make the species thrive. We've already seen it done with Sulcata and Leopard Tortoises. Now the USF&W Service is looking harshly at Boas, Pythons, and Anacondas. Thousands if not millions of Americans have these animals and yet it could be made illegal to transport them across state lines and their importation could be halted. All because a few alarmist want them listed as "injurious species". Why should you not believe that some alarmist organization (like PETA) won't
take hold of this and run with their own campaign? It would be easy enough. All of these forum threads contain a wealth of damning information.

If you look up Agamid Adenovirus at wikpedia.com you'll see Cheri Smith quoted. Now tell me, how did this individual become such an expert on this disease when the scientist researching the subject are still in the dark concerning Adenovirus. This article presents itself as fact, not assumption and has the link to PATS at the bottom. Looking at this, what's to say another self accredited individual won't come along and make the assertion that this could have an impact on other species and promote the eradication of Bearded Dragons in the US all together?

Is this what we want? Again I'll ask, WHEN DOES IT END????



I am already trying to do so. Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz are both reptile specialists, or so they say. Most "reptile" specialists throw their names around because they are supposed to be the leading authority on it.

Honestly, I have no idea what you are trying to say with the above statement. Are these Dr.'s not the leading authority on this subject? If this is the case then why have their words been so influential to some and only reply to a very select few? Could it be that they just have a job to do like most people and are attempting to troubleshoot something that may or may not have any effect whatsoever on the bearded dragon community or the wellness of the animals? Or is it that there are some people who are such extremist's that they have managed to scare the living crap out of people for nothing more then an ego thing.


You are right though, most vets do not think it is bad. A major reason is because they don't know anything about it or have never seen a dragon with it.

These are your words. If Dr.Jacobson won't give people the time of day and most Vet's don't think it's bad then why pursue this dead end street. You said the major reason is that they don't know anything about it. This is my point! No one does, even the Dr.s that care for the sick dragons. If this epidemic is the killer that it is perceived to be on these groups then don't you think that actual Doctors would take more of an interest in it? After all, they are Doctors and most have a practice to protect.


So there are some vets that are concerned, just not enough data from people in general & they don't see enough cases to be concerned. Vets that see alot of cases know how bad it is firsthand, but if they had never seen it firsthand they would not have the experience.

Again my point in your words, They are not concerned because Adeno does not kill dragons. I personally would love to hear from vet's that see a lot of it first hand so I can learn just how bad it is. And if it is as bad as they say then why have they all not seen it yet?

Again I will say this to you and anyone else out there who gives a crap. Adeno does not kill dragons. People kill dragons. Poor Husbandry, bad feeders, and improper diet is what kills dragons. Instead of trying to scare people about adeno why don't we begin to educate them, there are much more immediate elements that kill dragons then adeno. We need to learn about bacteria's like Klebsiella Oxytoca and Enterobacter Aerogenes that can shut down a dragons liver and kidneys within hours. There are so many more larger immediate issues to deal with and it is my opinion and I am very sure many many other people's opinion that adeno is not a killer of dragons.

This being said, it was not my intention to hurt anyone, but people need to know that there are two sides to everything. Tracie, you have done a good job at getting out and getting your word out and trying to help people make good decisions on what to look for when making a purchase. Unfortunately as you have seen you are fighting a no win, no end in sight battle. Just look at your breeders page on PATS, I have seen names come and go and not a single breeder with an adeno free colony. It can be argued for decades and I'm sure this one will be, well at least until something worse comes along. LMAO, this does remind me of the coccidia scare from years back, remember that one

Jeff and Desiree
JDM Dragons
 
Old 05-08-2008, 11:19 PM   #2
zztrent
You make some sense...

My first thought of the Adeno virus was, man people are freaking out over this... Then i did some research and figured out, it was more of a scare tactic then anything... If a breeder has healthy beardies, and the offspring's have had healthy lives then what is the big deal...? if a breeder has had no complaints of the offspring having long term problems or even shot term problems not involved with husbandry or care problems... Then i see no reason to worry...
 
Old 05-08-2008, 11:32 PM   #3
Drache613
Hello

Hello Jeff,

I honestly don't have much to add that I haven't already said in previous posts.
Try telling the breeders who have lost entire colonies that Adeno does not kill dragons, you obviously have not had that luck yet. I hope that you don't, really. Adeno does kill so you should not say that it does not. No, not all of the time as we know, but, it can & it will.
As far as documentation, you obviously are missing the portion of Dr. Jacobson's report which says it is recommended NOT to breed known Adeno positives & if they are sold, it is the ethical thing to disclose that information to the client. So I guess it is ok if you don't know if they are positive or negative so then you don't have to to disclose anything. That is not very honest. People deserve to know, either way. Just because a dragon may be positive doesn't necessarily mean that they will not purchase, but they need to be given a choice, that's all. You all are not giving them the choice.
You are misunderstanding regarding my statement of specialists. Dr. Jacobson & Dr. Wentz are regarded as the nations leading authorities on this issue so alot of times other vets send people their way because they simply don't know the answers. There are alot of vets that claim they are reptile specialists, but very rarely ever treat reptiles so they do not know much if anything about the virus & its effects. Reptiles are low on the list for research & there just are not very many good reptile vets around. Some don't even know what it is, so if they don't self educate they wont learn or if people don't take their sick reptiles in which is fairly frequent then they will never learn about it.
Lou Ann Miller states at the bottom of every single report that she sends out that it is undesirable to breed a positive dragon & to please consult with your vet regarding any question about health, etc.
I am quite sure that in nature, they do not inbreed near like we force them to in captivity for your high end color morphs. You do not see high end color morphs in the wild near like in captivity.
I have nothing to gain from this, I am not a breeder. I have simply wanted to help some of the few ethical breeders who no longer breed because of everyone's attitude. Just because I don't conform to everyone's same attitude does not mean that I cannot try to continue to do research.
Do you want answers? If so, how are we supposed to get any if no one will test? What is everyone so afraid of, finding out the truth or spending a few dollars to test?
We all want to know the answers, whatever they will be.
Oh & by the way I do not list several of the breeders that I am working with on my site due to privacy. I have already mentioned this prior in another thread but will mention it again.
One of my clients who has been testing for over 2 years now & has tested all negatives, & tests 2 times per year requested to be taken off of public view. I did so per her request due to unbelievable consequences! Whoever harrassed her by sending dead animals through the mail, sending hate mail, sending threatening emails, & calling her is plain immature. I am sure that they know exactly who they are, but I reserve the right to not publish any breeder upon request.
Currently I am working with several people. That one breeder at the moment, is not breeding this year but has already sent me the tests for my files. The other few are getting ready to send in their samples.
Sabatoging a few breeders who are trying to help is just cruel & very childish. So that is why I am not putting many breeders on my site that are working with me right now.
If you want to give me a hard time that is fine, I really honestly don't care. In my heart, I feel I am doing the right thing to help clean up the colonies slowly. It will take years, but with any cooperation at all, I feel confident that a small dent can be done. I don't see where I am doing anything wrong by forcing issues to come up & asking questions & trying to get some breeders to help out with testing so we can gather more data. I could ask the same from breeders, where & when does it end? The overbreeding, the crazy morphs that are created from inbreeding...that will never end.
I think consumers would be more pleased if it would be in the disclaimer that they have been tested & are positive or negative. Then, they would know what they were up against. As I have said, I have friends who have spent thousands just to keep their dragons alive & for some people a positive dragon with health problems is just not an option due to finances.
If you think that I am in the wrong, that is your opinion. I will continue on what my goals are & you can go your way, not a problem.


Tracie
 
Old 05-09-2008, 12:31 AM   #4
pdragon
Jeff and Des- That is one of the best posts I've read in a long time. You couldn't have put it any better. Josh
 
Old 05-09-2008, 08:48 AM   #5
Bearded Wizard
Tracie,

I've stood by and supported most of your cause in the in the beginning simple because I didn't know any better. But when was the last time you actually sat down and talk to a medium or large breeder in person for several hours about issues like Adeno? Have you ever visited these so called "Puppy mills"? And where is your proof that we are inbreeding to receive our so called "high end colors"? You know the US bearded dragon history just as good as anyone else, some US breeders have been working on bloodlines and colors for almost 30 years now, most of them have since left the industry to pursue other careers, but we still have 20-30 years of outcrossed bloodlines to come up with the colors we have now. Now what good would it be to have a colorful morph that is sickly and never makes it to adult hood? Breeder for the past two decades have been working very hard to cross different like like GG into the colorful line to strengthen the gene pool. Some of your statements are so clueless it's not even funny, do you know the top breeders are constantly receiving dragons from Canada, all of Europe, and parts of Asia? A large portion of the UK lines were completely different from the original US lines from back in the 60's... And you want to talk about sickly, have you seen some of the Australian captive bearded dragons recently, some of their lines are in horrible condition! Have you tried to contact some Australian pathologist as AdenoVirus is alive and well in Australia, but not just there, it's on every continent that dragons are present! And I don't hear of mass die offs in the UK, or South Africa, or Canada, etc...

And to address you comments in another article, you do know that some breeders are so proficient that their hatch rates are now at 98%-99%, and some smaller breeders have had 100% hatch rate for several years now! Now I believe you were stating how horrible the US hatch rate was compared to the "Wild Born" Australian babies, the last time I checked the wild clutches were lucky to reach 50% and that's before predators eat the eggs!

Tracie we do appreciate what your doing in a way, but you are doing it all wrong, you are taking an activists approach to something that is not an epidemic! It can cause a problem from time to time, but so can the flu in young and elderly individuals. But you need to change your approach to get the answers your after, you can't just scare new comers to this industry away with false information and information you have no dealings with first hand! I'm willing to bet that more half of the cases of deaths here in the US every year are attributed to poor feeders and poor husbandry conditions hands down! Regardless if the animal had Adeno or not, they simply can't thrive in a sub par environment! So Tracie if you change your tone a little bit to asking rather than forcing these issues down others throats then you will get much farther than you have! You will continue to meet resistance to something that is not causing a large problem as breeders that have been dealing with dragons every day for a living will tell you there is no problem. Just like Jeff stated above, every species harbors Adeno virus and it does not cause problems unless their environment and diet are sub par! Thus again if our husbandry and diet are not up to par we will have sick animals regardless of the aliment! Very similar to cancer cells, all mammals harbor these cells and they are destroyed on a daily basis by our white blood cells, no one knows why one day our body no longer recognizes them as a threat! So very similarly it will be a very long time before we have any scientific understanding of AdenoVirus in Bearded Dragons.

So I agree with many other breeders, we have much bigger issues with feeders and husbandry as if either one was to faulter we would loose our colonies completely! And half of these "Adeno deaths" have the same symptoms as a bacterial infection, and you know how quickly a nasty bacterial infection can shut down the dragons system. You and I both have lost a dragon to a bacterial infection and I'm willing to bet your dragon Drache too had an enlarged liver and kidneys!

I don't see a problem with you finding answers to how Adenovirus effects bearded dragons, but don't scare people with stories when you are not 100% sure that those dragons even died of Adeno... And if you added up all of the so called Adeno deaths in the US it would be a very small percentage to the entire bearded dragon population, which might just come down to good vs. bad genetics! Very similar is why only 1/3 of the European cities died of the black plague in the 14th century and the remaining 2/3's were left unharmed! I guess my main point is you can't jump to conclusions as we don't have any scientific backing or proof pointing us in any direction, so collecting data is one thing but informing others that this is a deadly virus that once it infects your dragon it will be dead is a whole other thing...

Anthony
 
Old 05-09-2008, 09:01 AM   #6
draggintails
Tracie,

Your clients? What service do you offer that you have clients? Clients you work with? What qualifications do you have exactly regarding this virus or dragons in general (that you have gained from your own experience and not from breeders care sheets and books). It is good that someone can take time with people and answer their questions, but it is also good to recognize when it has gone to your head and your real time experience is not on the level you are claiming it to be and the ego is taking over the whole situation, it is now personal and not for the animals.

You don't have any clients that have tested all negatives that is absurd bull and you know it, you have not seen any such test results with your eyeballs and confirmed it with a lab..this is not even for debate, it shows insanity or pure deception. If someone were to destroy their positive animals based on the information you gave in the previous email and on your site, they would think their colony is diseased due to the fact someone had all tested all negative animals..then if they were to investigate and say..sue you over information they believed to be false information (you own the information on your website in the State of Florida) you would be found guilty after the court made discovery you would be slapped with an injunction..very, very serious, manipulation of medical documents. Do not start by saying someone is threatening me now...this is a scenario. Do not get yourself into trouble by not verifying what you say on a public forum and on your website. Stop this, do not continue to bring it up, it is fallacy....you can not be credible heading a medical society without proper records that are verified. I don't believe for one moment that anyone has been harassed or sent dead animals in the mail, this is propaganda to make someone look like a victim and a holy figure and should be dismissed entirely.

You brought it up: You spoke of Denise having all negative results from U of F recently on the phone, they were on your desk...when I told you I do know that is not true, you back peddled and said you "might have been lied to" and would call Dr. J to verify. You did not question him about this and still have not to this day..why? I truly believe Denise did not even know you told me this on the phone, it was made up on the spot and she would be right pessed to learn of it. This statement means you were telling an untruth to make it look like you have negative AV colony breeders for your PATS and you know you do not, can not verify it to anyone who asks. This is why Dr. J thinks what he does about you and the information he reads on this forum that you give out. It is not possible to say what you do on these forums which ARE being read by them and have them take you seriously. Legal does not let them post on the forums but they do read it.

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Ann Miller

Lou Ann has had a rare handful of submissions lately no one is testing with her, she is not even working on AV now, Florida is having little to no submissions.

I think the blame, the unverified and often incorrect information has turned everyone off. The new information coming in from around the world and Australia as well is giving us an awful lot to think about and digest.

Doing a good thing for the animals is wonderful and commendable this has left that good intention. Vets around the world have a changing mind on this virus now with the recent testing.
 
Old 05-09-2008, 11:20 AM   #7
Valley Dragons
WOW, guys! Great posts! I'm glad that some of the people on the "other ' side of the issue are speaking out. The adeno-scare has reached the point of absurdity IMO. Common sense has been thrown out the window in exchange for mindless circular thinking.

Kudos to you all!

Jamie
 
Old 05-09-2008, 01:49 PM   #8
midnight_962002
Well I am happy to see some breeders finally standing up for themselves. I have seen, not just Tracie, but others going after large breeders saying that they don't care, etc, etc.

Tracie,
I have seen you help many, many people who have dragons with issues. Most of the time your information is very helpful. This is why what you are doing is having such a devistating effect on the community. You said that you are a nobody in the Dragon world on another post. I don't believe that to be true. I believe that you may know more about there health than others. I usually agree with your advice and see posts that you have already responded to and I know that I don't have to question it. Because, you have already thought of more stuff than I would have.

But, when it comes to Adeno. It appears that you are a little bit obsessive. If Dr. J and Dr. Wentz needed foot soldiers they would have gone to the vets. Starting with the Vets of larger breeders and working their way down the path. You have become the self appointed "expert" on Adeno. Kicker for me is that you have never owned an Adeno positive dragon. So you don't know, first hand, if it actually is any different than owning a dragon that is negative. Well, that is if the Adeno wasn't hiding during the test.

I always read that there is a new symptom of Adeno here or there, this or that. Usually it is something that I would attribute to poor husbandry. But, when there is no logical explanation, Adeno gets the blame. Because, that is what it has to be?

I don't want to sound like I am attacking you. I believe that you are a good person. Only that on this subject people are pushing back and saying they don't believe you to be right. So you are pushing back harder.

I don't expect you to stop doing what you are doing through this post. I can only hope that I have told you that maybe you should be going about it in a different way and asking the help of the people you critize. You may not get
them to gain your beliefs but you may get them to help you find the correct answer.

Ernie
 
Old 05-09-2008, 04:19 PM   #9
bloodbankdragon
I think adeno is over rated

Adeno Virus: My Findings.

I have kept my opinion to myself for the last few years about this topic. I have some unique ideas when it comes to breeding and husbandry. My opinion about parasites and viruses is somewhat unique as well.

Not every bearded dragon is going to live a long, healthy life. Life is fragile and raising animals in captivity is challenging. Bearded dragons often lay over 100 eggs a year to overcome these challenges. It would be unnatural if every dragon survived to reproduce. Please remember this when you begin working with this species. Some times they just die…


With that said there are a few misconceptions about Adeno that I would like to share my ideas on.



“Adeno virus is wiping out colonies and clutches.”

I personally know 30 or more breeders all over America and NONE of them lost their colonies to adeno or any other virus, fugus, or parasite. Hatch rates have been very good this year as well. Adeno virus is NOT wiping out colonies and clutches.



”Adeno is just like A.I.D.S.”

A.I.D.S. Kills 100% of everyone it infects… Adeno virus typically has NO symptoms and lays dormant the entire life of a healthy dragon. Humans have Adeno and were not culling children and quarantining towns. Its just not a serious virus. It kills the weak.



”We must have an Adeno free colony to save the species”

Bearded dragons have adapted to live with this virus in the wild and in captivity. If you could produce an Adeno free colony, the first time they came in contact with Adeno the dragons would drop like flies. An Adeno free colony would become very sensitive to the virus.

It makes much more sense to breed animals that have developed a strong immunity to Adeno. Breeders took this approach when they realized they couldn’t get a coccidia free colony. They selectively breed animals that best tolerated coccidia . I believe the same approach should be used with Adeno.


Steven Barnes
 
Old 05-09-2008, 04:39 PM   #10
Drache613
Hello

Hello,

Well Anthony, such a fine example to bring to the board. First off, joining MY society, then lying & going behind my back about it after talking to other people saying that it is not a problem. I really am disappointed with how you have handled yourself. I have talked to several breeders, yes, larger breeders. I am not a phone person most of the time.
Go ahead & breed. I know all of you all are networking, etc, just to discredit me. I really don't care. If you want to continue to spread it, then there is nothing I can do.
Yes, actually I have been in contact with several vets from Australia. Some have said there were a few cases, but nothing like here in the US.
I will continue to try & educate & encourage those who want to test for the better of the species & health. Why do you not care about spreading disease, because of you pocketbook? That is a lame excuse.
Yes I actually do have documented tests from someone who has been testing negative for 2 years. They have been confirmed through Lou Ann so don't tell me what I do & do not have. I refuse to share my files because of the privacy. She has already been harrassed anyway so you have already gotten your way by shoving your biased views around.
Personally it is the other way around guys. You shove your views around to everyone else saying it is not a problem, when, it is.
I spend a great amount of time on foreign forums. The UK people do have it & some have had problems such as we have. They do not import as much as they did & they stopped having as many problems.
The larger breeders have everything to lose while I don't. I am not a breeder & don't stand to lose money off of breeder stock. Of course they will fight back. CheriS has been fighting a losing battle for awhile now & she gave up for the most part.
When I search for something, I don't stop until I get all of the answers. I have asked for participation from larger breeders so we can get more data. All I get is stabbed for requesting that people test. I will ask again. Why is everyone so scared of learning the truth & finding out more information on their colonies?
Denise is not testing this year. At the time we spoke on the phone, out of respect for her since we had emailed several times & she said she would email me or mail me the results, I honestly thought that she would. She has been beat up enough here so giving her the benefit of the doubt is what I had intended to do until she proved me wrong. I fully expected to receive those results. So oh well. I honestly don't know if she ever tested. Maybe we will never know unless she ever comes out with it. I tried & gave her a way out. It did not work out. There is nothing I can do about it. No one can say that I didn't try. Besides, she never said that her tests were conducted at the U. of Florida anyway. Where did you ever get that from? I wanted to protect her privacy, & she may have tested. If you all harrassed her vet like she claimed, then, personally I don't blame her for not releasing them to me or to anyone else. You all have a way of mobbing people.
Tammy, when did you go to vet school? The last time I remember you weren't a vet so where is your expertise? You had an entirely positive colony that you put down, remember? Why did you not keep them & let them live out their lives & do some research of your own like Tere has done? Wouldn't that make you guilty of destroying your colony then?
All of my records that I have are verified through Lou Ann Miller but I will not disclose them on here, period. No PCR's just fecals.
You Tammy for someone I thought was trying to help out, you sure have a negative attitude saying I am over my head, etc. Who made you the expert though? I never once claimed to be an expert. I saw a need & I went through with it, knowing what I was facing. I have friends who have lost so much with their Dragons & I just wanted to help.
The claim of my client who was harrassed did file a police report, fyi, so do not tell me that my claims are false. They only traced the package to a particular state, but no address. How convenient I say.
Everything I do is for the animals. I have no personal interests like you do, I am not a breeder so I don't stand to lose money like you do, thus that is why everyone is trying to discredit people who actually are trying to help out.

Tracie
 

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