Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

If you have snakes developing lesions, Logan, you can have your vet take a 4mm biopsy from the area surrounding the lesion and send the tissue to Dr. Allender's lab for qPCR testing. Dr. Allender is very good about responding in a timely fashion to inquiries, I encourage your vet to contact him directly with any questions. Biopsy tissues and cotton swabs (generally used for wild venomous snakes) can be stored at -20C for up to 6 months or -80C indefinitely for testing. His faculty website with contact information is here: https://illinois.edu/ds/search?searc...end&skinId=333

Thanks for the link, Vanessa - I will definitely have my vet biopsy any lesions showing on any of the snakes and send them off, as well as perform other routine diagnostic tests. I'm particularly invested in getting answers at this point because in addition to the snakes in question, I have around 50 other reptiles (all CBB, all thriving), and even though I quarantine carefully and religiously, just the potential of having SFD infected snakes in the same general area (separate room, same house) is making me a bit uncomfortable.

Folks, this is not a husbandry thread, so try to curtail that a bit.

I also have to wonder why the people who position themselves in a stated position of caring about the side issue have not created a thread in a more appropriate area as instructed and linked it here as suggested. Almost like being informative is taking a backseat to combining the matter with spectacle.

I have seen off-topic posting in multiple forms continuing. Continued focus on the illness and its potentially broader importance versus the aspect of the named party in the thread's title. Profanity. Mention of other businesses for some reason. Posting about one's own prices versus that of others. Breeder versus reseller operation principle stuff. Now husbandry (which I have been okay with to a degree, but it needs to be curbed now and hopefully self-curbed).

It would be most effective to operate within the framework that has been established for this site. Otherwise, you can end up clipping your own wings. The BOI is a valuable tool, but pretending it is acceptable or appropriate to use a ruler to drive nails here does not make it so.

If anyone is aching to earn infractions, I will make some time in my schedule to oblige, but I hope to not have to because I hope such a person will reason oneself out of the work it takes to earn such.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

The fact that you squeak out a meager existence by peddling b-grade animals to unsuspecting 14 year olds doesn't mean you should be exempt from regulations designed to protect our collective wildlife resource, or our private collections. (See, both of us can play that off hand, denigrating comment game, can't we?)

Now, lets please get this thread back on topic: Underground Reptiles and SFD.

OP, I do not disagree with you at all on the potential for a devastating problem going on...but you are undermining your own credibility with snarky responses like this. This issue has the potential to have enormous consequences so of course people are going to question and even disagree. My unsolicited advice - don't take it personally when you get questions. Evidence speaks for itself. Some people aren't going to agree no matter what and no need to get into battles with them. It actually calls into question your motivations when you denigrate someone who doesn't agree with you. It's just not necessary, and counterproductive to the issue at hand.

I can understand why you posted this in the BOI but understand, this forum is for feedback on buyers and sellers and you did name Underground. If you've read many threads you will see there is a common theme of posters needing to show some proof. If everyone just took everyone else's word for things, it would be a pretty meaningless forum, right?

Anyway, off my soapbox...

Sorry Nick, posted right when you did. In the interests of keeping the BOI thread on track, I would ask the OP: what is it you want Underground to do? Have you asked them to do testing, etc? How would you like to see them handle this issue?

I'm not taking their side at all, just trying to keep this in alignment with what the BOI is for.

Moderators have now asked twice (#34, 56) that the sickness issue be moved off the BOI and to a discussion thread, yet here we find ourselves, still no discussion thread.

Behind the scenes, if you are unaware, infractions have been and are being passed out. A BOI report supposedly about "Underground Reptiles" has morphed into unrelated tangent fighting, self-promotion, swearing and off topic discussions.

This is simple, make it about Underground Reptiles OR don't be upset about the infractions when they come. Fair is fair.

I recognized your post for being within bounds, Theresa. No worries.

Are you sure your not out to trash a company and are going it in around about way? Your including a lot of conjecture on Underground's business practices in your argument.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

- The often misidentify the water snakes on their it makes me wonder if they even know the species they are dealing with, or if they just hope their customers don't :-)

Conjecture; do you have proof that this is a conscious business decision? A smile emoticon doesn't mean that your not deliberately casting aspersions.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Regarding captive bred vs wild caught - Places like Underground often pay "collectors" - sometimes also referred to as "winos" - for wild caught animals. If the snakes are pregnant they are tossed into cattle tanks and kept crowded together until their babies are born. So hundreds or even thousands of babies are "captive born" in a very disease rich environment.

Do you have physical proof of this in the form of pictures or is this more of your conjecture on the company? Was your claims about the extirpation of massasaugas in Illinois based on the same level of proof? I'm still waiting for your proof that your claim is what happened in Illinois.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

The skin lesions or pustules showing on your brown water snake do look like those on my greens. But visual comparison is only part of the diagnostic process. Unfortunately the fungus species in question (O.o.) doesn't culture well, so your local vet won't be able to diagnose SFD accurately for you. (Its too slow growing and overwhelmed by bacteria when cultured. Even treated with antibiotics other types of fungi sometimes outgrow the SFD fungus) So they will probably have to talk to Dr Allender's lab at the U of Illinois. They can instruct on how to collect the samples, process and ship. Analysis there is done by a specific genetic test (qPCR) developed by Dr. Allender.

So it could be the same as blister disease since the cultures routinely showed bacterial infections along with other kinds of fungi (which would make them secondary infections) because they didn't know to test for this specific fungus using at that time a non-existent PCR test.

Originally Posted by thamnophis123

Snake skin blisters or SFD isn't caused by keeping a snake in damp conditions. Its caused by a pathogen that seems to thrive in warm, moist conditions.

Where is your proof of this claim? It is well noted in the literature that snakes are known to emerge from hibernacula with "blister disease", so I'mm guessing that your position is that hibernacula are warm?

Are you sure your not on a crusade to take down a dealer? You've made multiple claims that are either contradicted by the literature or are flat out conjecture and hyperbole while dismissing or outright denying anything you think is contradicting your claims.

Making false statements aren't going to win you any converts and seriously undermine your placement of blame and honesty.

some comments

Ed

Originally Posted by Robert Walker

Moderators have now asked twice (#34, 56) that the sickness issue be moved off the BOI and to a discussion thread, yet here we find ourselves, still no discussion thread.

Could you tell me which discussion thread would be appropriate? I looked them over and couldn't decide which one was the "right" one.

Originally Posted by EdwardK

Are you sure your not out to trash a company and are going it in around about way? Your including a lot of conjecture on Underground's business practices in your argument.

Ed, much of your commentary here is about specifics of the fungus and the mods have asked us to move those area to discussion boards. So I won't address them here. I probably won't address them there either, but thats another story.

Insinuating that I have ulterior motives is annoying, but may be on topic. So I'll address it...

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes. I was equipped to deal with that. I've seen enough importers / dealers facilities to know what I was getting in to.

What I didn't expect was snakes possibly (not definitely) infected with an emerging disease that threatens native and captive herp populations globally, and for which there is no known cure.

To me thats a kinda big deal. As I told Underground's manager on the phone yesterday, "I have nothing against your company at all. This is a new disease and it is not on many people's radar."

But as I also told him, this disease threatens not only our animals, but our hobby. USFW can shut trade down tomorrow if they want to by simply passing an interim rule declaring native snakes, or even all snakes, injurious - i.e. a threat to native animals.

I suggested that they read up on the disease and examine their business practices to decrease the spread of the disease, and therefore decrease the potential for the disease to damage our hobby.

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you may have of me and my motivations. But if it doesn't lets move specifics of the disease, and my character, to the discussion board, ok?