Smoothies

Originally Posted by JimD

Ladies Ladies Ladies!
Ive never had so mush attention.
Jim

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Originally Posted by Saladragon

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Well, on that happy note, I'm off. Starting tomorrow I will be off camping, field herping and bouncing around in the jeep in Big Bear for 3 days. It's in the low 80's up there, so I get to escape the heat!
Tere, what do you want to bet I come home with some new rattlesnake pics for ya?

Okay, there is so much concern over the skin of the silkback just "ripping open". Yes, it is soft and delicate when compared to the tough, spikey scales of a normal dragon. But so is mine, and I don't usually find myself rupturing an arm as I walk through my house! Isn't it the nature of skin to develop toughness in places where it frequently comes in contact with foreign objects? Don't you think that it is a possibility that the dragon's body would make the neccesary adjustments? I know that people and other hairless animals develop callouses where they are needed. Nobody here has stopped to consider any possibilities because they are so hell-bent on this being a definite wrong.

The issue of the genetics of this animal has been resolved. Massive inbreeding is not needed to create this animal. You don't need two silkbacks to create a silkback...but if you DID want to mate two silkbacks, isn't there other ways to get around their actual making contact with each other? Think outside the box, people!

Why? Why is there so much hatred for the people that are creating this new morph? Did I miss something? Why are you calling all of us who would like to see more research done on this morph "brainwashed"? Brainwashed by whom?
Why am I considered "brainwashed" or a "spokesperson", as other have called me, if I don't go along with the opinion of the mob? (By the way, I prefer the term "spokesmodel" if you are going to call names, lol).

I'd like some answers as well.

Jamie

Hello,

I have been looking over this a few days & had seen the first few posts awhile back so I checked around about them, etc.
I was not in the least bit surprised when a few of the so-called experts as they are calling themselves, started raising a ruckus because people were not in agreement with this new "mutation" as it is being called.
Good grief people, what is wrong with everyone anyway? I am so sick of everyone fighting about how to increase profits by exploiting any animal that they feel like exploiting.
As brought up, yes, we could go on & on about "other" animals that have been trashed, but this thread is not about other animals, it is about the future of bearded dragons. Livestock has been around for a very long time, thus, there is a plentiful supply of it around. Dogs & cats have been pets in captivity for a long time, & look what humans have done to them in for the sake of fame & fortune. Do you think that some of those animals WANT to look like they do? If they could talk, I highly doubt that they would.
Take a look at where everything is going. Why would we want to ruin a perfectly good looking species & take it to the brink of extinction? What was or what is wrong with what they look like now?
Sure, I agree, maybe more so called research needs to happen before making a decision. However, I have a question, how does anyone know that they cannot take higher temperatures, & need lower UVB as well as shorter basking times? Someone had to "test" those waters to know that information so I feel that some dragons were probably harmed in gathering that bit of information. No one learns by doing things correctly.
What kind of life is that for a sun worshipping & basking bearded dragon? I feel that part of their majestic, proud & noble look is their spikes that they display. They are georgeous just as they are, no need to change their DNA.
This I fear is coming dangerously close to intermixing an undesired trait & if it gets into the wrong hands, it will change the course of the DNA & breeding forever. I would be heartbroken to see that happen.
In nature, as it has already been brought up, I highly doubt you would see this type of species out in the wild. It sounds mean, but nature simply does not select for the weakest, as it is called Survival of the Fittest, so, why in the world would we breed & select the weakest & wreak havoc on the future breeding projects?
I am all for breeding to improve the species. However, I think that nature does that by itself, & they were doing fine, if not better by themselves before humans got their hands on them.
Everyone knows that I highly admire Steve Irwin, well, people who I talk to on the boards, & they know who they are, & I have to say, he is probably crying right now, shaking his heads at us in embarrassment & shame. Really people, they are HIS NATIVE animals. LOOK at what we are doing to them!! We are supposed to be making him proud & representing them to the best of our ability. We are not by doing this.
Funny, people in Australia probably think that we are complete idiots over here. They have no problems with Adeno & certainly not this either. Why don't some of you join & post over on the Australian forums, it might just do you some good for once!!
Please have pity & some heart for these dragons! Oh & Jim, you really need to learn to have some manners.

Tracie

Originally Posted by Drache613

Hello,

I have been looking over this a few days & had seen the first few posts awhile back so I checked around about them, etc.
I was not in the least bit surprised when a few of the so-called experts as they are calling themselves, started raising a ruckus because people were not in agreement with this new "mutation" as it is being called.

Tracie - just for clarification - who are the people that are calling themselves the experts in this situation? Because as far as I have seen in this thread, there has not been anybody claiming to be an expert. We don't need people to come in and muddy the waters on this issue anymore that it already has been. Please stick to facts, and use quotes to back your claims so that this thread will be easier for everyone to follow. Thanks.

Jamie

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

Okay, there is so much concern over the skin of the silkback just "ripping open". Yes, it is soft and delicate when compared to the tough, spikey scales of a normal dragon. But so is mine, and I don't usually find myself rupturing an arm as I walk through my house! Isn't it the nature of skin to develop toughness in places where it frequently comes in contact with foreign objects? Don't you think that it is a possibility that the dragon's body would make the neccesary adjustments? I know that people and other hairless animals develop callouses where they are needed. Nobody here has stopped to consider any possibilities because they are so hell-bent on this being a definite wrong.

The issue of the genetics of this animal has been resolved. Massive inbreeding is not needed to create this animal. You don't need two silkbacks to create a silkback...but if you DID want to mate two silkbacks, isn't there other ways to get around their actual making contact with each other? Think outside the box, people!

Why? Why is there so much hatred for the people that are creating this new morph? Did I miss something? Why are you calling all of us who would like to see more research done on this morph "brainwashed"? Brainwashed by whom?
Why am I considered "brainwashed" or a "spokesperson", as other have called me, if I don't go along with the opinion of the mob? (By the way, I prefer the term "spokesmodel" if you are going to call names, lol).

I'd like some answers as well.

Jamie

Well, I haven't called you brainwashed or a spokesperson, but then I don't consider myself part of a "mob" either.
Since I do know something about genetics, particularly genetic disorders, I'll confine my answer to what I know.
I was born missing thumbnails. Not a huge thing, right? My mom didn't have thumbnails, neither did my sisters. Since my family was undiagnosed at the time, we just thought it was a weird family thing.
As we grew up, we noticed other small things, like our kneecaps were not like other peoples, and our arms didn't straighten all the way. Again, not a big deal, but more bothersome than a simple lack of a couple nails.
Then we grew up and started having kids, and our kids had it too, some born with more serious issues. Then we finally got diagnosed as having a genetic issue. Not one that was created by someone trying to create a new kind of person, it was naturally occurring, but it was a problem.
Now, it turns out that this genetic disorder causes problems everywhere, Missing nails, badly formed joints, missing or misplaced connective tissue, early onset osteoarthritis, open angle glaucoma, and kidney disease, all because our bodies don't process collagen correctly during development. My mother was 56 when the kidney disease took her life.
Its never as simple as breeding OUT scales. What are scales made of and what happens during development when you inhibit their growth? The scales themselves are made of Keratin, fairly essential to a well working bone and connective tissue system. What else does this effect besides scales?
I don't think that experimentation just for the sake of experimentation is always a good idea, not in an industry that has no controls to protect the animals from unethical types of it. This particular genetic experiment is less than a year old, so who knows what problems besides the thin, fragile skin are going to pop up.
Also, at this time, artificial insemination techniques with reptiles is very rare even in real laboratory settings. These people creating this morph are NOT scientists, so what experience do they have with a technique that is only being attempted by veterinary researchers?

Originally Posted by Drache613

Hello,

I have been looking over this a few days & had seen the first few posts awhile back so I checked around about them, etc.
I was not in the least bit surprised when a few of the so-called experts as they are calling themselves, started raising a ruckus because people were not in agreement with this new "mutation" as it is being called.
Good grief people, what is wrong with everyone anyway? I am so sick of everyone fighting about how to increase profits by exploiting any animal that they feel like exploiting.
As brought up, yes, we could go on & on about "other" animals that have been trashed, but this thread is not about other animals, it is about the future of bearded dragons. Livestock has been around for a very long time, thus, there is a plentiful supply of it around. Dogs & cats have been pets in captivity for a long time, & look what humans have done to them in for the sake of fame & fortune. Do you think that some of those animals WANT to look like they do? If they could talk, I highly doubt that they would.
Take a look at where everything is going. Why would we want to ruin a perfectly good looking species & take it to the brink of extinction? What was or what is wrong with what they look like now?
Sure, I agree, maybe more so called research needs to happen before making a decision. However, I have a question, how does anyone know that they cannot take higher temperatures, & need lower UVB as well as shorter basking times? Someone had to "test" those waters to know that information so I feel that some dragons were probably harmed in gathering that bit of information. No one learns by doing things correctly.
What kind of life is that for a sun worshipping & basking bearded dragon? I feel that part of their majestic, proud & noble look is their spikes that they display. They are georgeous just as they are, no need to change their DNA.
This I fear is coming dangerously close to intermixing an undesired trait & if it gets into the wrong hands, it will change the course of the DNA & breeding forever. I would be heartbroken to see that happen.
In nature, as it has already been brought up, I highly doubt you would see this type of species out in the wild. It sounds mean, but nature simply does not select for the weakest, as it is called Survival of the Fittest, so, why in the world would we breed & select the weakest & wreak havoc on the future breeding projects?
I am all for breeding to improve the species. However, I think that nature does that by itself, & they were doing fine, if not better by themselves before humans got their hands on them.
Everyone knows that I highly admire Steve Irwin, well, people who I talk to on the boards, & they know who they are, & I have to say, he is probably crying right now, shaking his heads at us in embarrassment & shame. Really people, they are HIS NATIVE animals. LOOK at what we are doing to them!! We are supposed to be making him proud & representing them to the best of our ability. We are not by doing this.
Funny, people in Australia probably think that we are complete idiots over here. They have no problems with Adeno & certainly not this either. Why don't some of you join & post over on the Australian forums, it might just do you some good for once!!
Please have pity & some heart for these dragons! Oh & Jim, you really need to learn to have some manners.

Tracie

Great post Tracie, and I agree, Steve Irwin would not have been happy with this development. He was after all a conservationist, working to preserve the natural species of his native lands and around the globe.

As far as I know, no one is pushing this new morph at anyone. I agree that a lot of people dont like it and think its wrong. A lot like it too.
Its like with Ball pythons. There are many problems with them but people still love them and want to be the first one to create a "new morph".
A lot is brought up about how these would never survive in the wild. They would never see the wild so why bring that up. We have albino everything now and that for sure would not make it in the wild. You need to be carefull with how much UV albinos get also.

I'm not pushing the silks to anyone. Those who want one will search for themselves. You like it or you dont.Easy. I do think its cool that it has been proven that we now have co-dom and super forms of dragons.

Jim

Originally Posted by JimD

As far as I know, no one is pushing this new morph at anyone. I agree that a lot of people dont like it and think its wrong. A lot like it too.
Its like with Ball pythons. There are many problems with them but people still love them and want to be the first one to create a "new morph".
A lot is brought up about how these would never survive in the wild. They would never see the wild so why bring that up. We have albino everything now and that for sure would not make it in the wild. You need to be carefull with how much UV albinos get also.

I'm not pushing the silks to anyone. Those who want one will search for themselves. You like it or you dont.Easy. I do think its cool that it has been proven that we now have co-dom and super forms of dragons.

Jim

This is sad, sad, sad. In people, scientists, researchers and physicians spend billions of dollars every year, and countless research hours, trying to reverse or negate the effects of genetic disorders. They do this because we all realize it effects our quality of life. No one is going out and specifically trying to conceive a child with Downs syndrome because they think its cute, and when it happens naturally, while most parents would love the child regardless, the rest of us recognize that it is also a tragedy. If scientists were creating Downs babies in labs to experiment with them, knowing full well the implications of doing so, people would be having a fit.
Recently there was an ad that appeared on these pages where someone was producing and selling eyeless turtles. That also provoked a flood of disgusted emails, all people screaming about how unethical it was.
This is NO different.

Hello,

Well, even if you are not pushing the new "morph" on anyone, it will gradually get out if anyone buys them. Like I said, I feel it will get into the wrong hands & get bred into normals & ruin the entire species. Everything always seems to happen that way.
I do not think it is fair to animals. They don't have a choice. What if they don't want to look like that, has anyone asked them what THEY wanted? No, it's all about what we as humans want, & it boils down to money, that is it.
Why can't it just be about maintaining the current species, & the love of the species pure & simple? It isn't as easy as if people like it or don't like it, as the real concern here should be "it is beneficial to the animal"?
Jamie, when I refer to the "so called experts" I think the majority of people know what I am speaking about. People who defend unethical practices, & bash those of us who do not agree with their type of thinking, etc. They all think that they are "experts" in the field because they are one of the top producers, or support them, or are friends with them. Does it make it right? No, not at all, not in my book it doesn't.

Tracie