selling native herps

I know this is a pretty gray area in the reptile industry but here's my rant...

I'm beginning to observe an increase in dealers offering native herps for sale. I'm talking about stuff like green anoles, little skinks, green treefrogs, six-lined racerunners, black racers, coachwhips, etc. I know, this isn't exactly old news, and a lot of folks have been doing this for a while.

Now...my beef isn't necessarily with species that are native to the U.S. After all, a lot of our popular species are; i.e. corns, kings, milksnakes, gopher snakes, pond sliders, etc.

Nor is my issue with wildcaught animals. I do understand that many species are always going to be imported until a morph puts them into the captive-breeding map. Examples are savannah monitors, water dragons, and numerous other lizards. It sucks...just the way things are. One point is that most of these species fare will with good husbandry, wildcaught or not.

But my point here is that A.) is there really a market for a things like broad-headed skinks & rough green snakes? ...and B.) are times really that tough where dealers really can't make enough money selling exotic stuff and cool morphs that they have to resort to catching things in their backyard and selling it?
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Two examples:

One is a small fish. I just saw an ad in the "Other Snakes" classifieds section for Crowned Snakes (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...36#post1271436)

These are tiny little 12" snakes that eat termites and centipedes. The OP is trying to sell them for $35. I mean....who is going to go out and hunt down termites and centipedes for crown snakes? Upon further research, every other post from this guy is an ad for some WC herp he found in his haunts in South Carolina. Most of the stuff is dinky little things like spadefoot toads and newts and tiny lizards....species that few people are dedicated enogh to keep alive in captivity.

The other example is a big dog...sort of. I'm gonna come out and say it: Glades Herps. I remember when Glades Herps used to be one of the go-to dealers for really cool exotic stuff. Now...one of the latest Repticons, over half of their tables were cheap WC native herps I could literally go out and catch myself on a good day here in the Southeast. Is that what dealers like Glades Herps are reduced to nowadays? selling racers and coachwhips and anoles?

Am I the only one bothered by this?

Putting aside the issue of selling WC animals, I believe there is a market for native species. Your post seems to imply exotic species and cool morphs are better. They are not necessarily better, they are just different, and there is more money to be made with them. Some people are not in it for the money and still appreciate native species. Personally, I have a great appreciation for a rough green snake in a large planted terrarium, if only they were legal to keep in my state.

My point is a very hard one to make...lol.

Again, I'm not necessarily bashing the actual keeping of WC animals, especially if those species are fairly easy to keep and/or the keeper is knowledgeable enough to keep them alive.

What I DO have an issue with is the mass-collecting of species that are KNOWN to be difficult to keep, and still trying to sell every one you can find. Back to my original example: there was a guy selling crowned snakes. These are tiny little 12" snakes that eat termites and centipedes. He knows this. But in his ad, he says the snakes are "very cool," and is selling these common little snakes for $35 that most people in the U.S. could find their backyard.

Now...think about it. Exactly how big do YOU think the market is for tiny little 12" crowned snakes that eat termites and centipedes? Not large at all. I'd say, practically nonexistant. [Again, I'm just using crowned snakes as an example since the ad is fresh in my mind]

You say some people aren't in it for the money. I agree. But someone mass-collecting and selling crowned snakes for $35-45 a pop isn't doing so because he is loves the species. Some unsuspecting smucks are going to buy those snakes, get them home, and then wonder, "where on earth am I going to get termites and centipedes on a regular basis to feed this snake?!" It's going to result in a tragic snake-keeping experience for the buyer, likely death for the snake, and just more money in the pocket for the seller.
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Rough green snakes, while not quite as tricky as some species, are not a beginner snake IMHO. Yet dealers still mass-collect them and sell them by the dozens for $10-15. Most of them die. If we were talking about speckled kingsnakes, it's a different story. Some species acclimate better than others, but all some people see is dollar signs.

please refrain from naming names or calling out companies as that wanders into BOI territory.

Thank you, we appreciate your cooperation.
-April

Originally Posted by MDC_Ophiuchus

But my point here is that A.) is there really a market for a things like broad-headed skinks & rough green snakes? ...and B.) are times really that tough where dealers really can't make enough money selling exotic stuff and cool morphs that they have to resort to catching things in their backyard and selling it?

A)
I see your point. But it is a difficult fix. Without a lot of rules that restrict the freedom of buying and selling, how are you going to distinguish between an impulse buyer of a inexpensive critter, and someone who genuinely want to take the time to keep the critter and is willing to do the work to do so?
B) Yes

Originally Posted by lucille

A)
I see your point. But it is a difficult fix. Without a lot of rules that restrict the freedom of buying and selling, how are you going to distinguish between an impulse buyer of a inexpensive critter, and someone who genuinely want to take the time to keep the critter and is willing to do the work to do so?
B) Yes

On both points, I think its a situation where we all need to be a little more responsible with what we offer, how we advertise it, and our target demographic. Its been said many times that policing ourselves is ideal before Big Brother starts doing for us, this He already has started doing anyway.

Such as the case for a few species here in Alabama. The black pine snake has been so over-collected for the pet-trade (as well as habitat destruction) that it is now protected in this state, and likewise illegal to own. Someone can pretty much own one in any other state around me, but I can't own one...all because people got greedy and start grabbing every black pine they could find.

Now, turn that scenario around for a more obscure species like say, rough green snakes or dekay's brown snakes. True, neither take quite as well to captive life unless you're devoted, but hypothetically, all it takes is enough nimwits to start collecting them by the bucketloads and selling them for $10 each. Then it gets to the point where most of them perish, and before too long, the govt catches wind of it and steps in, and then no one can keep them.

I know the economy is tough, but I still believe that the same effort to go out in the hot sun and look for herps all day can go toward mowing lawns, making some cash to buy some breeder corns or balls for investments, and soon the money can be made back.....definitely more financial return than selling backyard fodder for pocket change.

And again...I can almost understand the kid down the street pulling this stunt, but a so-called big-name reptile dealer thats been in the game as long as I've been alive? Surely the industry isn't hurting that bad!

Originally Posted by lucille

A)
I see your point. But it is a difficult fix. Without a lot of rules that restrict the freedom of buying and selling, how are you going to distinguish between an impulse buyer of a inexpensive critter, and someone who genuinely want to take the time to keep the critter and is willing to do the work to do so?

And specifically...the dedicated handful of enthusiasts who are interested in those hard-to-work-with species are likely already in areas where they can acquire them themselves.

With each ad for one of these species, it gives the illusion that the market for it is larger and larger, encouraging more and more vendors to acquire that species.....ultimately catering to a demographic that is virtually nonexistant.

Example: A guy says to another "Hey man, next time you find a five-lined skink, catch it and I'll give you $5 for it." [now, between you and me, most herpers aren't that interested in 5-lined skinks, which are fast and mean, and secretive. Heck the first guy, probably just needed it to feed a picky snake or something]. Guy #2 eventually catches one, gets his five bucks and thinks to himself, "Hey, one guy is willing to pay money for these lizards. There must be others who will as well!" So then, he goes on a collecting spree, capturing every 5-lined skink he can find, and then he pulls a price out of his rear and tries to sell them on Fauna! Several lurkers see the ad, and then think to themslves, "Gee, I didn't think 5-lined skinks were that popular, but this guy is selling them for $10. I know I see them all the time around my house. Sounds like free money to me!"......and the cycle starts. Then new hobbyists see the ads, and while they can't afford the latest and expensive gecko morph, a $10 skink looks cool, so they jump at the chance, and then imagine their surprise when they get this speedy little lizard that they can barely catch and they rarely see when they put it in the terrarium, and they can hardly find any info on it because guess what? No one really has ever kept them in captivity before. Who'd thunk it?

I know...a very dramatic example, but that's truly where I see this going. Ultimately, I don't see the dealers making that much money off these animals. I don't the animals ending up in the hands of the devoted hobbyists that truly like them, and I certainly don't see the animals lasting that long. I don't think its going to bode well in the long run when govt officials start seeing more and more native species show up on tables. Its fine when its albino cornsnakes and ratsnakes that wouldn't last in the wild. But when its skinks and little treefrogs and anoles, and fence lizards.....time will tell.

Native vs nonnative is not relevant to me. Selling cheap, WC animals of species that are godawful hard to keep alive and healthy is, regardless of where they come from--Mexico, Africa, the US, wherever. I don't like seeing iguanas for 10 bucks, mud snakes for 30, niles for 25, etc. I've actually thought there are a lot of fairly cool herps in the US that I'm surprised aren't more popular (although I don't know how easy/hard many of them are to keep in captivity; an example would be our native toads).

Originally Posted by paulWTAMU

Native vs nonnative is not relevant to me. Selling cheap, WC animals of species that are godawful hard to keep alive and healthy is, regardless of where they come from--Mexico, Africa, the US, wherever. I don't like seeing iguanas for 10 bucks, mud snakes for 30, niles for 25, etc. I've actually thought there are a lot of fairly cool herps in the US that I'm surprised aren't more popular (although I don't know how easy/hard many of them are to keep in captivity; an example would be our native toads).

That's pretty much the sum of my feelings on it. I definitely agree there's a lot of underrated herps right in our own backyards that are fairly easy to keep (i.e. toads). They're just not "marketable" which...is perfectly fine with me, to be honest.

But in the same token, many species are equally impossible to keep longterm, like the aforementioned crowned snakes, or say, horned lizards, another herp that is ill-suited for captivity yet is sold year after year to the unsuspecting masses.

Many states have laws about selling native herps or importing them. This is mainy to protect the native populations. In my state, we can keep up to five of each unprotected reptile (field collected). Personally, big brother is already involved with this and the sellers you speak of are probably not selling many of these snakes to undereducated keepers. Most of your fly-by-night reptile sales are made at a local pet store. I'm sure some people get these snakes with no idea how to care for them, but I doubt they are the majority.