Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!! - FaunaClassifieds
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Old 07-18-2003, 01:32 PM   #1
Ghi Reptiles
Angry Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!!

About two months ago I purchased an 8lb. female Amazon basin emerald from Tim Bowles. The animal was shipped UPS next day delivery and she arrived early in the morning. While talking to another individual on the phone I preceded to open the box to kind of bust his chops about the animal I was receiving. To my horror the 8lb., six foot animal was packed in a 16 quart sterilite container with wet paper towels as substrate. Way too small for an animal of that size! She looked like she was dead and when I pulled her out and she stayed in the twisted up position as she was in the container for about two minutes before she started moving. The guy on the other end of the phone was screaming 'what's going on' as I was repeatedly yelling 'I can't believe it'! The animal had a respitory infection, one tooth was obviously broken and the tissue in the mouth was so swollen that it was sticking out of the mouth. I called Tim Bowles and explained the situation of the poor packing job and I insisted on shipping the animal back and told him I wanted a full refund. He blamed it on UPS but I finally got it across to him that his packing method was the problem not UPS.

About a month ago Tim offered to sell me a 5' New Locale female that I had sold to him last october but I was not interested in her at the time. On July first Tony Nicoli produced baby emeralds from the first 'New Locale' to 'New Locale' breeding (New Locale animals have a certain look that enthusiasts often look for). All of the babies came out with similar traits, which was awesome! After seeing the NL babies I inquired about buying the animal Tim previously offered me and we settled on what he paid for her, which was $2,500.00. He is a customer and from what I thought, a friend so I gave him the same as he paid. I told Tim I wanted her sent UPS and we agreed on that but only after his insistence that there would be a stipulation that he was not responsible for the animal if there were any shipping problems. I had no problem with this as I have a friend that works as the driver for my area. I give him a call when I am expecting a delivery and he comes to my house very early. I received the animal along with another shipment at 9:01 am yesterday morning. When I opened the box I noticed the bag she was in was soaking wet and so was the newspaper substrate. I assumed he sprayed the bag and substrate with water in hopes of keeping her cool. This was not the case as Tim Bowles later informed me they were dry when he packed her. When I pulled her out of the bag I was shocked to see that she had a puffy throat and the lower half of the body was a complete mess! She was obviously very uncomfortable and very, very bloated in places. Even though she was bloated in places in others her skin was baggy and pinched in and she had what appeared to be lumps and dents in her. The snake obviously has some major problems that in my opinion had zero to do with shipping and I would never even consider selling an animal like this to anyone. I assessed the situation and made the call to Tim and when I finally got a hold of him at about 10:30 wednesday night he informed me that since we shipped UPS and he didn’t want to, there was NO GUARANTEE because of the mishandling by UPS. Now the deal was if something happened to the animal because of shipping he wasn’t responsible. I agreed to that and no problem here. You could throw the box off a three story building and the animal wouldn’t look like this. In my opinion and about ten other professionals in the business including two exotic animal vets, none of this was a result of shipping and I am looking for a full refund. I have discussed this and shown pictures, to whom I would term ‘experts’ in the Corallus field and they all agreed 100% and in their opinions are that this was not a shipping issue.

Now check this out! During our conversation wednesday night Tim informed me that he had a witness listening there for our agreement that was done over the phone. He said he thought I would pull some **** like this and so he wanted a witness. Now one question I have is why would you need a witness for a deal with a friend if the snake is100%? To me that just seems like covering tracks. A friend of Tim’s told me he asked Tim if he had any recent pics of the animal and Tim said no he didn’t. Now if you didn’t trust me to the point that you needed a witness to hear our deal wouldn’t someone be able to snap some quick pics of the pristine animal that was being shipped so I wouldn’t pull a fast one? I was also told wednesday night that the snake was never really for sale and I pressured him into selling her so his guarantee of ‘a healthy animal upon arrival’ didn’t apply. I wanted to return the animal yesterday but wednesday night I was told she belongs to me and I am not getting any refund and if I return her he wouldn’t accept the package. This is in an e-mail from yesterday morning , “You are shipping your animal at your own risk and negligence”.

I think just about all of the deals I have done with Tim where I have sold him animals, he was given terms sometimes taking many, many months to pay. I had no problem with this because I considered him a friend. I would send thousands of dollars worth of animals with no initial payment at all. For some reason he wanted full payment up front before sending the animal to me. She was going to be shipped last week and he asked if I had used paypal yet to pay him and I said no.
Well I was told she didn’t get shipped because of thunderstorms two nights in a row. I did check the weather there and it did say thunderstorms. He asked if I sent payment on wednesday for thursday shipment and when I said no but I would send money thursday and he could ship thursday he said he wouldn’t ship because of potential delays over the weekend. I wired the money into his account early this week and he shipped Tuesday but only after full payment.

I took her to the vet yesterday morning (who actually does a lot of exotics) and after examining her and the shipping box and bag, his opinion was that she was literally pumped full of fluids to try and get her hydrated. He said that in his opinion the liquid matter in the bag was what the animal couldn’t handle in her body because of being forcibly overhydrated and she had to ‘viod’ it. Her mouth was white which he said wasn’t great and she was a bit sluggish. I will do everything I can to save this animal but I feel ‘set up, betrayed, and I feel a full refund is necessary.

There was NO problem with shipping at all. The box was completely unharmed and the animal arrived earlier than expected and was immediately placed inside my home. Since the opinion of one professional vet and many professional Corallus enthusiasts is, there is no way this happened during shipping, aren’t I entitled to be able to return the animal and get a FULL refund? Here are some picks of her that I took wednesday. Keep in mind I paid $2,500.00 for a perfectly healthy animal!







Now in the first pics you can see the bloating and dents in the animal. You can also see the 'pinched' areas in a row down by the tail. They almost look like injection sites. The scales on the nose are amazingly concave and the skin on the neck is very, very loose. The last two pics show the amount of fluid that was still in the animal upon receipt.

Here is two pics of her before being sold to Tim.




I am looking for opinions from all whether you are friends of mine, friends of Tim's, or both. I have heard about 10 opinions from friends of both already and they side with me 100%. I am looking for what I think is right...a full refund of $2,500.00. Tim previously owed me $1,300.00 for the balance on a male 'Basin' and I had to wire transfer him $1,200.00 before he shipped the animal. I am willing to eat the $500.00 or so this will cost me to do all the lab work.

Thanks!

Matt Lerer
 
Old 07-18-2003, 02:13 PM   #2
Ghi Reptiles
Sorry but one of the things that I left out was there were NO urates in the wet bag. The bag had a slight smell but not 100th as strong as regular snake waste.
 
Old 07-18-2003, 03:06 PM   #3
HerpVenue
Why would he need a witness if he was selling to a "friend"?
And if he felt like he needed a witness......why sell the animal at all?

If he did not want to ship by ups.....what did he want to use?

If the animal was really 100% healthy when he sold it to you.....why does he not want to take the animal back for a full refund?
 
Old 07-18-2003, 03:16 PM   #4
Rob @ RK Reptiles
Matt,

First I am sorry for that snake and for you to have to go through this on 2 occasions. That snake in the pics you took on Wednesday are awful looking. The snake definitely looks like it has been given Sub-Q fluids to try and quickly hydrate it. You can see on the neck, side of the face and the nose the animal is dehydrated. The bloating look is what happens when too much fluids are PUMPED into the skin to try and hydrate an animal to quickly. The pockets where the fluids where pumped into on the upper body can be clearly seen in the upper picture posted. That is just plain ridiculous. The areas on the lower body that you said look like injection sites very much look that way to me as well. That area was probably as PUMPED as the upper area and the fluids leaked out while in transit. The snake DID NOT get that way from shipping. The smell that was in the bag is most likely from the fluids under the skin leaking out. I would definitely say you are 100% entitled to a full refund including the shipping cost of shipping the animals back to him.(both animals). Unfortunately that snake most likely will not be alive long most likely due to how dehydrated it was before the injections and also possibly because of the injections. Too much fluids injected Sub-Q can kill an animal as well.
 
Old 07-18-2003, 03:50 PM   #5
Urban Jungles
My god!?

Upon seeing those pictures it is immediately evident to me that the animal was injected intra-coelemicly with fluid in order to counter was is apparently some severe dehydration. All of this quite evident in the pics by the concave rostral shield and the "upturned" scales on the neck. That coupled with the "pinched" appearance lends to some major dehydration.
Another major problem with hydrating animals this way is that you should never exceed injecting 10% of the animal's total body weight otherwise it could have some serious complications with breathing.


That being said, were you told of any prior problems with the animal Matt? One thing about emerald tree boas I can tell you for sure is that nothing manifests itself overnite in these snake with incredibly slow metabolisms. It takes weeks of illness or neglect for the animal to get to that point. This being said (and assuming it is the case) then it looks to me like you were intentionally sold a sick snake and judging by the fact that Tim had witnesses to oversee your transaction it looks like he was making sure to cover his tracks.

Overall, this is just mindblowing!!!
I've always known Tim Bowles to be a watchdog for crooked dealers and rip-off artists and can't understand why he would do this or behave this way with you. It does seem that Tim is selling off most of his collection according to all the ads I'm seeing posted on various forums but I would not take Tim as the type to bail out and leave a bad taste in someone's mouth. Tim, if you're reading this I hope you can explain some of this...

The problems that animal is showing definitely have NOTHING to do with shipping and if you were not told of any prior health problems with that animal then I would say you deserve a 100% refund which should include shipping and paypal services.

$2500.00 is a awful big chunk of change to have to suck up for a animal that has problems, I am a sucker for "rehab snakes" and I wouldn't pay $25.00 dollars for an animal in that state.

My jaw is still on the floor...
 
Old 07-18-2003, 04:40 PM   #6
Dennis Gulla
Very Sad

Damn, I hate seeing such potentially gorgeous animals in such horrible shape! I would have to agree 100% with the other posts. The snake is severely dehydrated! None of it's problems have anything to do with shipping.
I guess you considered Tim to be more of a friend then he thinks of you! Tim blatently screwed you over!! No question. I don't know of your relationship aside of what you posted, but he must of had some type of vendetta. Did you guys have some disagreement recently? There is no way that an experienced aboral boa keeper could send that animal out without knowing exactly what he was doing!!
I will never in a million years buy anything from Tim Bowles!!!

I wish you the best of luck trying to bring that animal back.
 
Old 07-18-2003, 04:49 PM   #7
Ghi Reptiles
Hey Ritchie,

Tim wanted to use Airborne but I have had bad prior experiences and since my friend works at UPS my animals have always arrived early because I stay in touch when I am being shipped.

Danny,

I was told the animal was fine.

In the last e-mail I received from Tim he states that "The fastest shipping option offered by UPS is a noon delivery time and that is the way you wanted it shipped. I complied as per the terms of our agreement. You also stated that your neighbor worked for UPS and would ensure it arrived to you by 830 am. It didn't despite your insistence that it would. It actually arrived at 901 am your time."

First I never asked to have my animal delivered by noon. C'mon...July? Noon? 95 degrees.

Second I never said my neighbor would make sure it arrived by 8:30. He is a friend and I don't know where he lives. I have said that he gets me my packages early but have never given a specific time.

After spending a lot of time at the vets the last two days this is what they have come up with so far:

The animal definately DID NOT get the way it is because of shipping. I have two different vets that have stated this. The emeralds bloodsugar, glucose, and proteins were almost non-exhistant. From all of the tests they say the liver is not functioning well and the animal suffers from severe dehydration and is hypoglycemic. They also said that you could not feed an emerald for months and it's glocose wouldn't be that low so there are some serious problems with this animal. When they drew blood they first got a bunch of clear fluid...not blood. They said this is from being 'over hydrated' to compensate for the dehydration.

The vet just called me and the wet material from inside the shipping box was sent to a lab in miami and there were NO traces of urine, fecal matter, or even crystals on the pillowcase or newspaper. So they believe it was rehydrating fluid from the animal.
 
Old 07-18-2003, 04:53 PM   #8
Ghi Reptiles
Hey Dennis,

Tim and I have been fine and I can't understand it either. What got me the most is when he told me he had a witness listening to our deal because he knew I was going to try and pull this ****. Man for someone who I fronted easily $10,000.00 worth of animals...that one actually stung a bit.
 
Old 07-18-2003, 05:16 PM   #9
Rob @ RK Reptiles
Matt,

What is really weird to me is EVERYONE knows your reputation on Arboreal's and why would he even try and make an assumption that you would try something with him? Hell if I could afford some of your animals you are the #1 person I would go to for top quality Emeralds. It just does not sit well. It definitely sounds like he was trying to cover his own rear so he could screw you and get away with it. I would suggest that if he does not refund your money 100% I would seek legal action for sure. With the pictures of the animal, and the Vet reports You can go after him for animal cruelty as well as your money. He won't have a leg to stand on. I wish you the best of luck and if you need my assistance with anything please feel free to let me know.
 
Old 07-18-2003, 05:20 PM   #10
herpcondo
WHERE IS TIM..?

I will first say, i don't know either party,,Tim or Matt but i would say Tim pulled a fast one on Matt,, and the poor animal should have never been sold , much less shipped in that condition. what a shame,,,

Tim I have a few questions,,

Why would you in good faith sell a snake in that condition..?

Why would you represent it as " in good shape"?

Why would you do this to a "friend"?

Why would you have to have a "witness" if the snake was ok..?

Why have you not been here and defended yourself?, if the snake was in perfect condition, and someone was saying these things about me, i would be singing from the highest mountain trying to clear my name...

the pictures don't lie,, what you pulled on Matt was just plain wrong, and if you do your "friends like this I would hate to be your enemy!

someone said you were" selling off your collection" well you might as well after all this, because anyone who looks at this will never buy from you and will pass the word on about the way you conduct business,, and how you do your "friends".

SHAME ON YOU TIM! DOWN RIGHT SH*TTY!

Matt , i am sorry for the animal, and I know the feeling you are going through, i have had an incident like this in the past also,,,
i hope the animal pulls through, or Tim comes and does the right thing!

Tim come tell us your side of the story, and give Matt back his money!
 

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