Venomoidinc.com Inquiry

Originally Posted by DavidBeard

Wow...a thread asking for business dealings and not an ethics debate devolves into just that.

Gotta love Fauna lol.

If you read the OP next post about my posts he said it is what he was looking for. Hence the reason we were talking.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Yeah, reading this stuff, I can't help but wonder if a signed contract is even necessary. Probably venomoids would be suitably covered under the legal concept of STRICT LIABILITY anyway. So anyone engaging in performing venomoids would quite likely be fully responsible for any mishaps caused by their "product" regardless of timeframe or circumstances outside of their direct control. What they are doing is inherently and knowingly risky to their customers.

Great point! And I wonder what they would say about that?

GBCOP

No worries my friend. I tried my best to leave my opinion about why they should not be done. I just offered the danger points.

David,

Very well said. However, I do encourage you to contact Dr. Fry (www.venomdoc.com) and ask his expert opinion on reparative regrowth of venom ducts on elapids as well as vipers. In addition, please ask him about reparative regrowth of venom glands after a full adenectomy performed by a licensed DVM. I hope your findings will provide useful information on how a full adenectomy followed by a full ductectomy will render a venomous snake non-venomous for its entire existence. In terms of diet, digestion, and the lack of venom, please ask him those questions too. Dr. Fry is not a fan of venomoids; however, he is a very knowledgable professional.

Finally, on the ethical issues of venomoids, please contact AVMA to find out their opinion on venomoids.

Gary,

Come on old friend. When are you going to let it go? I am not here to debate venomoids, but when i see a fauna member who beleives members at Fauna have provided him guidance and education on this topic, I felt I needed to give David my .02. But for you Gary, I can only recommend you read the "Serenity Prayer" and learn to accept.

FYI: Gary is a very passionate fauna member who is very talented with reptiles as well as other subjects.

Stop by Hamburg in October

Originally Posted by gbcop

Gary,
I did not miss your point about the vet being human, at all! If anything you have solely convienced me NOT to purchase an animal from Venomoid Inc.

And honestly. You are right, it would be stupid to get tagged by a venomoid Atrox and NOT go to the hospital.

And I haven't experienced or seen anyone from Venomoid Inc freehandling snakes, but the way Jeremy keeps responding to concerns is... Well Scary.

Here is a E-mail I received back from him.
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David,
I appreciate the info, but what you sent is no different then someone's "tall tail" story. What I was looking for is a scientific paper or published with research. As for our stand we recommend that they snakes are treated like there venomous counter parts and are tested at least yearly. As I said we have not had a problem in 8+ years. I would tell you that the stories of regrow / regeneration are just that, stories. Most likely a procedure that was not done correctly by a professional or just not done and sold as a venomoid.

Jeremy
www.venomoidinc.com
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My experience with hot snakes is only limited to copperheads, cotton mouths and the WDB Rattlers. And as much as I adore Albino Monacle Cobras, Puff Adders, Eyelash Vipers, ect. I honestly can't see myself going out and actually purchasing one as I have ZERO training with them. I know some people who mentor with Elapids start out with elapids, but it would honestly be foolish of me with my experience of local venomous animals to make such blind broad jump.

I know the subject of Venomoid's is a highly debated ethical subject and almost everyone in the herp community has an opinon on the subject. I'm glad the members of Fauna assisted me with my homework. I was all for Venomids as it was my unresearched opinon that the procedure was safe and the animal was unable to produce venom from now on. And from everything I've learned here, and the almost exact same response over and over again from Venomoid Inc, I'm not going to be doing business with them or anyone else for a venomoid.

Thanks again Gary and everyone else that contributed to my inquiry,

David Beaver

Originally Posted by Gary O

I am against Voids probably more then most. But I want to clear up a myth.

If the gland is removed 100% it can not regenerate. But if any gland is missed it can repair itself and has been seen in elapids.

Can you please provide documentation for the finding about a partially removed gland?

I believe ductectomies on elapids were proven to show reparative regrowth if i'm not mistaken.

Hey it is the free handler himself................... Before I even get into any talk with you.

Why have you, or Venomoid Inc free handled gaboons and Rhinos at the hamburg show with in a few feet of walking customers?

You say that venomoid Inc treats the voids like hots. I seen this with my own eyes. I was there. And many other well respected hot keepers seen it.

Originally Posted by devenomized

Can you please provide documentation for the finding about a partially removed gland?

I believe ductectomies on elapids were proven to show reparative regrowth if i'm not mistaken.

Dr Brian frye has it in some papers he has written. Another vet that Tanith knows also has a report about it. I do not have them handy at this time.

But I say again the Vet will nto sign a contract saying that the snake will never become venomous again.

Do you know also that I had two snakes pulled out infront of me and the person wanted to hand them to me. One was a red spitter and the other was a blacktail Rattlesnake. Then I seen Venomoid Inc holding Gaboons and Rhinos during the show.

WTF dude. Really at a show?

Originally Posted by Gary O

Dr Brian frye has it in some papers he has written. Another vet that Tanith knows also has a report about it. I do not have them handy at this time.

But I say again the Vet will nto sign a contract saying that the snake will never become venomous again.

Do you know also that I had two snakes pulled out infront of me and the person wanted to hand them to me. One was a red spitter and the other was a blacktail Rattlesnake. Then I seen Venomoid Inc holding Gaboons and Rhinos during the show.

WTF dude. Really at a show?

Gary you should have reported it to the show promoters. The rules, as laid out in the vendor agreement, regarding venomous are very specific for vendors at the Hamburg show. The animals are supposed to be contained at all times and away from the general public.

Originally Posted by Gary O

Hey it is the free handler himself................... Before I even get into any talk with you.

Why have you, or Venomoid Inc free handled gaboons and Rhinos at the hamburg show with in a few feet of walking customers?

You say that venomoid Inc treats the voids like hots. I seen this with my own eyes. I was there. And many other well respected hot keepers seen it.

Gary,

Gabinos, not Gaboons or Rhinos, but maybe you weren't close enough to see the difference. Those were my snakes and they were there for display. Did you see the leucistic cobra? Stop by in October and I'll show you. Don't be a stranger.

Originally Posted by Gary O

Dr Brian frye has it in some papers he has written. Another vet that Tanith knows also has a report about it. I do not have them handy at this time.

But I say again the Vet will nto sign a contract saying that the snake will never become venomous again.

Do you know also that I had two snakes pulled out infront of me and the person wanted to hand them to me. One was a red spitter and the other was a blacktail Rattlesnake. Then I seen Venomoid Inc holding Gaboons and Rhinos during the show.

WTF dude. Really at a show?

Gary,

Do you know why I know you are telling a story? Because I was at the show this past Saturday and I ran the last two shows. We haven't sold a red spitter in over 6 months. The last blacktail rattlersnake we sold was a special order that was never at a Hamburg show and we do not allow customers to handle venomoids. If you really were at the Hamburg show last weekend, you would have seen a Leucistic cobra and a Gabino, but the more I read your posts, I think you weren't at the show.

I have personally handle a few specimens from our own collection at the Hamburg show. Our collection includes Gaboons, Gabinos, leucistic cobras, and other species. Gary, one thing is to come here an dispute a finding, present documented facts, or discuss a topic like an intelligent reptile hobbysts; however, if you think fabricating stories or imaginary incidents is going to make a difference, you need to learn to accept.

I'll make it simple for you to understand. We have learned to respect everyone's opinions here at Fauna. We have learned to listen and understand from very talented fauna members in some cases including yourself. We have learned to accept the opions expressed by several people regarding ethical issues as well as technical documented facts on venomoids. We are professionals that come to an online forum to discuss topics as professionals. We do not come to Fauna to insult individuals. We do not come to Fauna to fabricate stories or facts. We strongly believe that venomoids are nothing but an choice for a reptile hobbysts interested in purchasing a venomous snake. We hope that with the information provided on our websites and people who actually take the time to attend a show and speak in person that a potential buyer will have a better understanding about venomoids. We are not here to change the way you think or tell you that you should only possess venomoids. We want the same respect we give you. With that said, please take the opportunity to stop by the table at the next Hamburg show and I'll buy you lunch.

I'll be happy to talk to you about venomoids and i'm sure I'll have many questions about tree vipers for you.

your friend