Todd Seadorf of Palm Beach Exotics.....

So anyway, Whats up with the aspen thing?? I'm sure Wes knows the answer

Hey jr., you're finally right. I do know the answer.

You however, are such a pantload, that I'm not going to tell you.

Wes Pollock

Aspen can be very dusty and it isn't the best substrate to use for animals that require high humidity. Bloods are tricky to keep. They need humidity and yet a dry substrate. They are very prone to skin problems and RI's because of this. ANY snake prone to RI's should never be kept on aspen. Boas and cornsnakes are fine on aspen, but snakes like Rainbow boas, any in the genus Liasis, or any other snake requiring high humidity should be kept on cypress (those that aren't prone to skin problems) or newspaper and have a humid hide for the snake.

Too dusty and too dry conditions can easily initiate an RI.

Tom posted saying he had difficulties getting his own Fauna account and was using his room mate's account (so that is where the Jesse Smith came from) That sounds like a violation of the BOI in itself but he did state right up front that it was him. Since the two warning's on the Jesse Smith account were both on 20th of November for about the same type of posts that Tom Teasdale has been making on this thread. So even if a Moderator decides to give a warning point or two it really won't affect Tom here.

I really would like to see Todd reply to this thread because Tom you really aren't helping him a bit.

This thread isn't over until some issues are settled.

Issue #1) The heat pack wasn't properly activiated and/or failed.

Good discussion posted on how to properly activate the heat pack (or use two) and views on the shipping container. I doubt Todd will ever make this mistake again or will ensure that he verifies a good heat pack before shipping. Other people will learn from this.

Issue #2) Who Todd used as a shipper (Airborne Express) and why that can be bad.

Airborne Express doesn't knock on doors and with the heat pack not working that didn't help on a cold day (30-40 degrees)
What also didn't help was that the snake was in Ohio during the night and we don't know what the temperature status was.

Tom ranted about this in his post:

"...the snake should not have been out in 20 degree weather for 30 minutes(YOUR FAULT). Even if the heat pack was working(as you claim it was not), the ambient temp inside the box would have only been 35 degrees."

Heat pack discussion about only a 15 degree rise in temperature for a properly operating heatpack and suitable container. Now let's assume (best case) that the temperature in the Airborne Express truck was 70 degrees and the heat pack was working then the internal temperature would have been about 85 degrees. Now take the package out and set it in front of Michelle's door. Do you really think that the internal temperature of the sealed box with no air holes and I believe about 3/8"s to 1/2" of styrofoam inside the package sides will cause ambient internal temperature to drop that fast? If so why bother to insulate?
SInce the heatpack was not working then we can assume 70 degrees internal ambient temperature which would drop faster but not to outside ambient in 30 minutes.

Use Delta? Did you suggest that to Todd since he picked Airborne?

Results are that Todd said he would not use Airborne Express again. Other people now know that Airborne Express isn't the way to ship.

Issue #3) Respiratory Infection: Was it there before being shipped? Yes, it could have been. (someone want to add to the discussion about the length of time before mucus will be present during an RI?) Did the failed cold pack cause it to get worse? Sounds like it to me.

Results: One sick snake that David had to take to the vet and is now having to give shots to help the RI. Todd said he would pay this initial vet bill. I now know the proper way to give a shot to a snake.

Just as an aside, the email where Todd stated "I will not
pay the full bill. Remember the snake was left out in the cold as you said, which is out of my hands." was before Todd found out that the package was only outside the door for about 30 minutes base upon the tracking data that was posted. David did post at one point that Todd said he would now pay the complete vet bill.

This portion of the issue will not be completed until Todd actually pays David after seeing a copy of the Vet's bill for the snake.

Issue #4) Not so fresh injury to the snake as documented on pictures taken right after the package was opened.

Michelle and Morti know their snakes and how to take care of them. They stated it wasn't fresh, and others on here have stated the same. I'm just an EMT-B and my expertise is for human injuries or animal injuries growing up on a farm. So even if I say it didn't look fresh (it did not look fresh to me) to me I'm not the snake expert.

Results: When Todd pays the vet bill then this issue will be settled unless Todd and David decide otherwise or agree to some other settlement.

The vet bill was for the RI and the Injury care.

Did this hurt Todd's reputation? Maybe or Yes. That's up to how Todd handles the rest of this. So let's give Todd a chance to answer here on the BOI. (that's meansgive him a few days)

The Aspen question?
I may be wrong and other's may have their own opinion but my understanding is that aspen has a tendency to have dust (which can be breathed in) and doesn't maintain humidity well. So dry and dusty leads to a possible RI? Borneo's need a humid type hide and have pickier husbandry issues than other snakes that may be fine on aspen.

The last comment is again to Tom. Telling David that you won't monitor this thread any more and invite him to PM you at Jesse's address? (since you didn't give out your e-mail address) In my opinion that's in poor taste.

Hopefully this issue will be resolved in that the snake survives and has a healthy long life. That David and Todd work things out to some sort of mutual satisfaction.

My opinion is that Todd made some mistakes. How he corrects them is what matters now.

Kevin Scott

Thank you, Donnie & Kevin, for putting this chaos to a little bit of order ! I just want it to be known that it was not my intent to flame Todd or deface his reputation when I started this thread. I merely wish to be treated as I treat others.....he got a good deal from me (the trade was heavily in his favor, money worth-wise) and all I wanted was a nice healthy female blood. I did not get what I wanted, so I was unhappy. Put youself in my shoes....what would you have done? I suppose we can all learn several (yes, Tom, meaning MORE than 3, lol!) valuable lessons from all this, which Kevin mentioned.....thats what matters the most to me personally-that we learn from our mistakes.

In retrospect, I would not have completed the deal had I known EVERYTHING about the snake, but I am glad she is here with me. She has endeared me with her plight and I believe all this happened for a reason-so Wilma (the blood's name) could have a second chance at a good life. I will give Michelle the Vet bill for her to scan and it will posted sometime soon. I thank all of those who have participated in a positive way and I cannot thank enough the friends of mine who have given me so much help throughout this ordeal (Kevin, Donnie, Michelle).

Happy Holidays everyone!

Tom wrote:

"Do you always pass things off to you friends? If you want to make sure something is taken care of you should do it yourself.

Anyone else find that more than slightly amusing coming from the guy posting on his FRIEND'S account???

That wound cannot have been fresh when the picture was taken. If you look closely at it, you can see that the scales surrounding the wound are already reorienting themselves in their alignment toward the center of the wound. This happens when the skin starts to tighten as it regenerates as a scar. It was likely not mroe than a few days old, but it has definitely started to HEAL, and that simply cannot have taken place in the amount of time during shipping.

Just as a side note...
Switching shippers may not make a difference. I have had every shipper leave packages on my doorstep in all kinds of weather--UPS, Airborne, Fed-ex--without knocking or ringing. Even when it says "live harmless reptile, keep at room temps". And even with some of them "requiring" a signature. I do believe airborne has a $3 option of making sure to get a signature--a special tag that gets scanned. But, be looking out for the trucks with any of these shippers.

Dana

Good point, Dana. The box that Todd used was the same box that I shipped his snake to him in, and it was clearly labeled 'perishable' and 'keep at room temps' or something of that nature. I have not had any problems with UPS or FedEx however. They always knock, in my experience.

Originally posted by DavidBeard
I will give Michelle the Vet bill for her to scan and it will posted sometime soon.

While you are at it David, why don't you get Michelle to scan and post a copy of your import permit. You know, the one that was <b>required</b> in order to bring this animal into the state of Kentucky legally. I'd be interested to see it along with your vet bill.

I do not have an import permit, Jim. I am unaware of any such permit. If you have any additional info, I'd greatly appreciate it.