DWARF Leopard Geckos???

. . . way too much cyber-brawling and peeing contests going on as well. What's the benefit? So you out-argued another Leo nerd to get your point across - you stood up for what you believed - big hairy deal.

This place is turning into an exact replica of KS, and that's sad.

I don't go to the KS leo site anymore . . .

Now someone get my my fainting goat!

“I agree with Kelli as well. While I do not agree with breeding 'dwarf" leos, they can if they want. After talking to several peple regarding my posts and rethinking some issues, I too have seen myself being hypocritical. I did not want to admit it, but it's the truth, I'll take my lumps. That being said, James, you have made yourself look like a well educated and prideful person on your posts, I do hope you accept any apolgies coming from me in regards to some statements I have made.” Justyn

Apology accepted. I really appreciate it. Like I said, it appears that we have more in common then either of us actually realized. When you posted some of your credentials, I found it to be almost scary and kinda funny at the same time. I realize we may share differing opinions here and there, but I am ok with that, and I hope you are too. Again, thanks.

"i find me funny at times....
as far as my 35 points... i knew before i even hit the send button i would get those points.. so they were well thought out... i could have easily gotten points in this thread if i would have wanted but didnt because it did not seem worth the effort. thing is i say (allot of times) what people are thinking. now does that make me bad? no, just blunt and some may say rude.
oh well, but when it all comes down to it as far as my business ethics and my animals... i am very clear and do not try and sell weak or deformed geckos.... i sell only the highest quality, healthy geckos, no matter if it's a high yellow/normal or a hybino." Robin

That just sounds like a “shameless self promotional plug”… Who are you trying to impress? Honestly, I could care less about any of the color morphs that you (or anyone for that matter) produce. They are genetically inferior animals. That is a fact. There is no debating that. Albinos, generally have a higher death rate in captivity as well as in the wild. That being said, the hobby loves color mutations, so let the good times roll, and lay off while you are at it. On a side note: Gregg, the above can be applied to you as well. Also Gregg, My jealously comment had nothing to do with your Geckos, as you should know by now. It was in response to your remark that you made about Christina and myself. So, basically you are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. Enjoy your morphs and your hobby. Life is too short.

"do i know anything about Leo's? a little."
Robin

No argument form me there.

"what about genetics? a bit."
Robin

Earlier when you said that I do not know Jack about genetics, would that mean that you do know “Jack” about genetics? Is that about the same as a bit?

"do i know a defect when i see it? yes most times"
Robin

You should… All you have to do is look at an albino.

"is there a difference between me and you? yes, definately!!"
Robin

You are correct there. I do not breed Leo color morphs and spout illogic and hypocrisy on a public forum. I do not cull (KILL) animals just because they may display a trait that I deem undesirable. Now that I have brought that up, I will pose these questions to you. When you produce a gecko with a week jaw or a kinked tail, do you feel that its quality of life is affected in a negative way? Do you still kill it? Have you ever considered giving it to someone as a pet? If you produce an animal, do you not have the responsibility to care for it whether or not you deem it monetarily valuable? If you do decide it is not of any monetary value, is the gecko’s life still not of some value? Maybe you are worried about adopting them out and the possibility of them breeding in the future. You could always just hold onto them and care for them. Is not your responsibility as the person that produced them in this unnatural situation to care for each animal you produce? You and many others claim to love Leopard geckos. If that is the case than why would you kill an animal, that can live a long life, just because you feel you cannot EXPLOIT it by breeding it. You do not love Leopard Geckos. Instead, you love the Leopard Gecko hobby. When you kill these animals, you do it out of greed because you deem the animal of no value since you feel that you cannot breed it simply because it displays a trait that you consider to be a flaw, while you intentional seek out and selectively breed other pretty flaws. Like I said, you could keep it and not breed it, but that would cost you money, time, and space, wouldn’t it? So, it is about money. You can’t exploit it so you kill it. So, if you are indeed actually killing kink-tail and weak jaw geckos, you are a hypocrite in more than one way, and you are right, we are very different. I do not play God, and I do not think I am better than Mother Nature, and I do not kill animals simply because I cannot exploit them for profit. Honestly, it is people like you that make me cringe when someone calls me a “breeder.” While I do breed reptiles, I do not like the image that the term “breeder” conjures up in my mind.

"So you out-argued another Leo nerd to get your point across - you stood up for what you believed - big hairy deal." Monte

That is one of the most insightful statements on this whole thread. What in the heck am I doing here anyway? I am hangin with nerds. YIKES!

I do not cull (KILL) animals just because they may display a trait that I deem undesirable.

The term 'culling' does not have to mean 'killing'. Leos with these kinds of defects still deserve to have a good, loving home. They just should not be allowed to reproduce IMHO.

Honestly, it is people like you that make me cringe when someone calls me a “breeder.” While I do breed reptiles, I do not like the image that the term “breeder” conjures up in my mind.

What is that image, may I ask?

Nice to hear from you Marcia,
I realize that Culling does not have to mean killing, but it usually does. In regard to my use of the term, I was responding to some of the comments on Culling that Robin has made in where she is making it a clear reference to killing. If I am mistaken, than I will gladly retract my statement. Has there not been discussion of this nature here in this very thread? Basically I do not want to get into a play on words. Like I said, I realize "culling" means "to remove from the gene pool." However, I believe it has been used here as a nice way to say kill. Now for your question:

“Breeder” is a term that I am just not comfortable with for many reasons. When I think of a "Breeder" I think of a somewhat obsessive person that breeds animals, for profit, and rationalizes this behavior by deluding himself/herself into thinking that they are saving the species. They very often have little or no formal wildlife education or training especially in regard to breeding and genetics, and many of them seem to resent people with actual wildlife management, Biology, or Genetic backgrounds. Many of them do things like kill offspring that they produce, yet feel they cannot profit from. They also get very obsessed about changing the species in order to fit the demands of their hobby. Look at what many dog and cat "breeders" do. They take it to the next level. They often kill offspring that are born with the "wrong" markings even though it is a perfectly healthy animal. They just do not want anyone else having access to their "superior" genetics. They rationalize what they do in their obsessive little minds into thinking what they do is for the good of the breed, when in fact, it is for the good of their wallet. How close are we as "breeders" getting to this type of behavior? I think it is a question we should all ask ourselves. I am just not 100% comfortable with that term, even though I too breed and sell reptiles…

I will pose these questions to you. When you produce a gecko with a week jaw or a kinked tail, do you feel that its quality of life is affected in a negative way?

first off i have never produced an animal with a kinked tail or jaw deformity. but if i were to, if the animal could live on it's own with out any assistance, i would not put it down and yes i would either A.) give it away for free, and educate the person recieving the geckos of the defect and that it is a pet only gecko, not for breeding purposes or b.) keep it here

Do you still kill it?

read above

Have you ever considered giving it to someone as a pet?

again read above

if you produce an animal, do you not have the responsibility to care for it whether or not you deem it monetarily valuable?

i do, if it is capable of having a life without any assistance for example it being force fed it's entire life this is with ANY animal

If you do decide it is not of any monetary value, is the gecko’s life still not of some value? Maybe you are worried about adopting them out and the possibility of them breeding in the future. You could always just hold onto them and care for them. Is not your responsibility as the person that produced them in this unnatural situation to care for each animal you produce?

trust me, i have SEVERAL non breedable animals here, that i care for as "pets".. i have a normal male he has an inverted hemipene... he lives here and is taken care of. I have another gecko who is "slow" she is my sweet girl and i love her. she lives here.
I have a 5 year old argentine boa that we have had since she was 5 days old.. she has a 90 degree bend in her neck. my husband and i decided if she could eat and thrive on her own we would keep her but if she had to be force fed or assist fed her entire life, that we would not aid her and have her put down. It would not be fair to her to have additional stress by force feeding her. what kiind of quality of life would that be? she remains here in our collection 5 years later... and eats anything you give her. so her bend does not interfere with the quality of her life... she is only here as a "pet" she will never be bred and she will live her life out here.

Then maybe we are more alike than you think as well. I stand corrected. You sound like a person that does indeed care about the animals in your care, and I am very glad to hear it. I am very happy I was wrong about that aspect of you, and also impressed that you responded intelligently and respectfully. Thank you for that.

well i have to say thank you
but one thing sometimes we hatch animals that can not survive or maybe for whatever reason unable to thrive and live, these FEW animals that i have hatched do get fed to the aurics.
and yes i am a breeder but if you think that it is a person whom doesnt care except for monitary gain you are wrong... in the years i have bred reptiles i havent even broke even... i breed them because i love my animals and i love what i do... this is my hobby.. if i end up making money thats a bonus but if i dont then its no big deal. But my goal is quality, healthy animals and yes sometimes there are those that are born with defects that are able to thrive... and those i give away or keep for myself, but you also have to realize some do not and can not thrive... and it's either put them down or givve them to a known lizard eater. some may say that is cruel but unfortunately it's the cycle of life and trust me it is not an easy thing to do nor is having to put one down

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...743#post229743

here is a link to bender

Robin, Thank you again for the Clearification. Maybe I should rephrase my original statement, and say it is people like you that make me feel like it is ok when people refer to me as a "breeder". I still shy away from that lable for some reason (I just have issues)... Thanks again. I will go now.