INtroducing the "Enigma", a Brand New Leopard Gecko Morph!

Originally Posted by truthstingz

HERPETOLOGICAL FARCE...

The current pattern im seeing in the trade ........Bunch of B.S........... with herps that belong to everyone and not just those that can afford them... MAKE A STAND!

NUFF SAID!!

Basiclly Kelli, he is saying...I wan't an enigma, but I can't afford one. That's not fair.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

P.S. Do not delete this post or account i will repost it a billion times under a zillion names because its something that needs to said..This will be posted on many forums across the net because its time someone did.
PLEASE NOTE...
This has nothing to do with ENIGMAs nor any other specific morph and is posted here solely as FOOD FOR THOUGHT which is not meant to point a finger at anyone specifically as this is a generalization of many wrongs within the herp scene and not meant to point a finger at any specific morph(s) as those the rest of the world automatically KNOWs and its time someone SPOKEUP and that its not the animal(s) fault but the practices currently abounding which stink in a not so reputable way.

Then why did you dig up a post that is almost a year old in which to post this? Post it in it's own thread in a relavent forum, like the buisness or general B.S. forum.

I know NY has a lot of bridges for a troll like you to crawl under, why don't you go find one?

I was going to try and breakdown your post and address each point but it seems it would be just a waist of time. Bottom-line, you believe you are entitled to others hard work. That you are wrongly denied exciting new morphs because you can’t afford them. That you have a strong belief in entitlement.

I suggest finding one of those few countries left in the world that believes as you.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

The current pattern im seeing in the trade is the equivalent to herpetological rape as everyone claims to represent and care for as well as serve in their animals best interests while not for the money yet this is an almost comidic farce filled with a cast of many that will gripe over a markets dropping prices be-little the next joe while professing not to be in it for the money or while bickering over how any given drop may or may not affect a certain morphs value or status which is none-the-less just as comidic,

Originally Posted by truthstingz

when last i checked NOT one single breeder was made god or grandmaster over all reptiles on this earth let alone responsible over deciding in who's hands the latest morphs should best be in and yet every single breeder whom produces a new morph will in turn sell these morphs often times to another big breeder and/or person whom can afford the astronomical price tag tacked on

Every person has an individual right to decide how they will best distribute their animals. You may not like it, but you are god over your own animals. One is entrusted with every aspect of their lives.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

while the rest of the herpetological community or the average joes of the community whom are often equally as proficient & genuinely interested in breeding and working with these newer morphs and which also have every right to be able to access them have to in turn wait until their over-inflated prices are dropped which is an often outrageous price for any morph especially when considering that the first or

What gives you the right to someone else’s work? Try doing a little work yourself. You have no right. No access to anything that is not yours. To bad. So sorry.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

original imported strains were dirt cheap by comparison and especially when everyone knows that such morphs many a times are hatched out either out of sheer luck while others granted are selectively bred for certain traits and surprizes in between which also do happen but which by no means should command the type of prices which one see's nowadays which translates into mass marketing while coming in at prices that can only be translated as greed and herpetological exploitation regardless of how any other person tries to professionally justify it.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

The trade has now become a cottage cheese industry of supposed big names whom we often see mass producing morphs and especially the newest one's so as to rake in not only their initial investments but as well and at the commanding prices nowadays for newer morphs are also taking some substantial profits which some of those in the know and whom cleverly work their newer morph(s) production levels up do make like bandits crying themselves all the way to the bank or whom when criticized will readily turn to the cost of livings grand shelf of excuses while their herpetological scamming of others is akin to raping their own animals which they profess to care for so much but also yet will readily hold as a 'Hostage' to the highest bidder who can or is able to afford their price range in order to obtain their newer morphs.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

In that grand shelf theres also a section where one can see through the muck quite clearly when one hears across the boards similar statements along the lines of "I'd rather keep my animals and not sell them" or "The drop shouldn't affect their over all value" (Keyword VALUE $$) and many other similar statements which equally resonate across the fields of herpetology which speak volumes of how small and how petty in those raking the most can be which beckons one to wonder in amazement whether all these statements and actions which are now the norm really represent the best traditions of herpetology as a whole and if your answer is NO then you know that something is terribly wrong with the scene.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

This is by no means something new that many others haven't already thought of/about or voiced to some degree or even felt as is again evidenced throughout the online reptile trade or scene when one only has but to find comments while searching throughout forum boards which often times will be the work of the average person/breeder whom will often voice their disgust with the muck that now is prevalent in the reptile scene as you'll often hear "Nope i'd rather wait then shell out a grand or two" or "At those prices i'd rather wait because paying that much is ridiculous" and the sad fact is that voiced quite often across many boards and apparently those that know this seem to care less as many of the breeders will do exactly just that by basically selling them only to those that can afford the initial investment

Originally Posted by truthstingz

until the cat is out of the bag and many have already bought them and sales start lagging so there is no alternative but for the prices to finally start to go down while the rest of the herpetological community is not really considered nor given any measure of justice as they will get to eventually work with these select morphs much after the fact because now they can finally afford them at the lower dropped price ranges but

Originally Posted by truthstingz

again one must ask is this not deplorable when breeding or captive breeding is very much a part of the field of herpetology which is mean't to serve educate and be a part of the mainstream public as a whole rather than as a select program controlled in such a way so as to pimp certain animals at exhorbitant prices which in turn only a select number of consumers can afford?

Originally Posted by truthstingz

This is the dark side of herpetology which basically is a byproduct of greed which only stifles not only the market but also retards true progress as so much more could be accomplished in a relatively shorter span of time if it weren't for the greed of others yet thankfully even with such idiots in our mist progress always prevails even if unfortunately most of the time in the very hands of those who priorities are to their own pockets rather than true herpetology as their actions so eloquently prove..

Originally Posted by truthstingz

so now i say to myself, damn i might like one of those new latest multi polka dotted checkered geckos but can i actually afford what they'll cost and/or do these people producing em even give a damn?,

Originally Posted by truthstingz

well now imagine that times millions across the internet that are equally into herps asking themselves something similar only to be confronted with the same situation which on hindsight isn't very funny at all as everyone deserves to work with all the newer morphs, not just another big breeder who's stuffed his coffers that can afford to, everyone deserves to love and have them not just the sly ones or lucky ones or the selective breeders whom managed to create a new morph out of a once standard leopard gecko that is still no less a leopard gecko regardless of how nice or colorful it is, everyone deserves to a chance to have,

Originally Posted by truthstingz

work with learn from and be able to obtain them only thats not whats happening in the circles until the corrupt have made their profits (or in laymans terms stuffed their pockets) and so many have been sold that they can no longer control the spiraling plummet as suddenly with so many around and no one else buying the prices must drop and only then does the rest of the herpetological community get access to them or is finally able to afford them now in all due fairness does this sound like it represents fair business practices to you let alone is done in the best interests or traditions of entire herpetological community out there & everyone else in between? Sometimes i wonder at the amount of naivety out there and all those whom perhaps think fondly of the big named breeder they are dealing with and how reputable (a contradiction in itself... haa ha) these new morph producers are as they really seem like great caring folk out on the net representing your best interests and that of the reptiles which they 'BREED' (Keyword BREED/SELL) which perhaps might seem larger than life and may seem reputable enough until they've gotten paid and once paid do you honestly ever hear from most of them again... LOL

Originally Posted by truthstingz

Does a reputable breeder criticize or downplay another breeders tactics or methods seem reputable to you? Does a reputable breeder say okay well i know you can't afford $1,400.00 so don't worry about it i'll charge you $200.00 the answer is 'NO' they take you for what you've got knowing they bagged you and tagged you, they make their profit and once too many are suddenly out on the market first among most of the breeders and folk who can afford them and sales are no longer strong as the inevitable occurs their price drops and they'll blame they next guy instead of having sold you the animals for an affordable price right from the beginning.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

Does a reputable breeder stand for the rest of the herpetological community doing WITHOUT the select or newer morphs which have been produced or go ahead and make their own profits first basically saying "F%^# you when they very well could have sold you one out of so many produced for a normal rate?
Hmmm i could go on and on so lets not even talk about their etiquette which all know to many degrees is quite varying in itself so think twice folks.
It would be nice for a change to see everyone go back to 100 to 200 price range if they really cared for anything other than themselves or their own pocket and in some cases even thats alot but we can't win em all and i know many out there are going to read this and many will highly applaud this while others who are so far up some new morph or their breeders crevices that they will literally play to the tune of their fiddle while in reality deep down even they know that these animals belong to everyone and that they're being raped just as much as everyone else has been and all over a combination which led to a new or different genetic color variation but of the same animal so now.. whom exactly is the fool?
The reptile community as a whole should band together and refuse these kind of practices and then let these breeders selfishly either keep them or comply with the best traditions of herpetology and bring all prices down on everything so that everyone can truly be educated by them, work with them, share and be able to obtain them providing the prices are within reason so that the general public and/or herpetological communities as a whole can be able to afford them in the first place rather than being placed last and on the back-burner by the price-jacking and inflated amounts which we're seeing nowadays and is about SELFISHNESS BUSINESS and plain and simple GREED rather than herpetology.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

The same way you don't want anyone raping you or anyone else is the same way you should not let anyone and i mean ANYONE do the same to our (the worlds) herps so i would encourage all to no longer encourage or play to the fiddle to these yo's yo's and in fact band together if need be to pitch in money and get whomever to make an initial purchase and then take those prices and DROP EM LIKE ITS HOT!!


This way from the very first few sold they'll KNOW the message is loud and CLEAR and that people are tired of their playing games with herps that belong to everyone and not just those that can afford them... MAKE A STAND!

NUFF SAID!!

Originally Posted by truthstingz

P.S. Do not delete this post or account i will repost it a billion times under a zillion names because its something that needs to said..This will be posted on many forums across the net because its time someone did.
PLEASE NOTE...

This has nothing to do with ENIGMAs nor any other specific morph and is posted here solely as FOOD FOR THOUGHT which is not meant to point a finger at anyone specifically as this is a generalization of many wrongs within the herp scene and not meant to point a finger at any specific morph(s) as those the rest of the world automatically KNOWs and its time someone SPOKEUP and that its not the animal(s) fault but the practices currently abounding which stink in a not so reputable way.

As far as I'm concerned, you have a right to basic human needs. Everything else in this world you have to work for. Can't afford it now, then you are going to have to work for it. Dealing with morphs has nothing to do with the basics of the field.

Don't whine. Get out there and do your own work.

Originally Posted by KelliH

You know what? I really tried reading that big mess you posted and just can't. It's like one large run on sentence and it is hard to follow. If someone cares to translate it for me I would be happy to comment further, otherwise I am not going to give myself a headache trying to read it.

Summary:

Originally Posted by truthstingz

It’s not fair, it’s not fair, it’s not fair.
I want what you have and can’t. I don’t want to work for it. Give it to me.
I’m not expected to work for anything. You do all the work and then give it to me. I'm entitled to every new morph at the price I think I should pay. I really just like working with the species. So, I need morphs.

Thank you for the summary, Dennis.

Originally Posted by truthstingz
P.S. Do not delete this post or account i will repost it a billion times under a zillion names because its something that needs to said..This will be posted on many forums across the net because its time someone did.

Let me break it down for you...

I could care less what has your panties in a wad, or if you're miffed because you're too lazy to work for something. However, I do not take your simple-minded talk lightly and your threat to spam has earned you a warning for antagonizing moderators.

This isn't Burger King, and you don't get it your way. If you post something that warrants deletion, it will be deleted, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Push the issue enough, and your account will be nixed as well. As for posting a "billion times," it's far easier for me to delete a post than it is for you to post one, so that's no skin off my back. Likewise, it is not a big deal to prevent re-registration.

Finally, please refresh yourself on proper use of grammar and punctuation. There's children here that have a better mastery of the English language.

Dennis Hultman (DH),

(DH) Bottom-line, you believe you are entitled to others hard work. That you are wrongly denied exciting new morphs because you can’t afford them. That you have a strong belief in entitlement.
I suggest finding one of those few countries left in the world that believes as you.

(TS) You words Dennis not mine... but that the entire herpetological community is exposed to such practices is truly sad.

(DH) Every person has an individual right to decide how they will best distribute their animals. You may not like it, but you are god over your own animals. One is entrusted with every aspect of their lives.

(TS) Yes i agree with you to a degree as everyone does have the right to do as they please which i guess includes leaving the greater portion of the herpetological community out of the loop whom are no less equally deserving and does anyone even care or take a moment to consider how this makes others feel as a whole or a you saying im the only person on earth displeased with such practices i think not which would truly be foolish considering how many other threads across the forums on the net mention this very type of practice as way out of control serving only the best interests of the almighty dollar.

(DH) What gives you the right to someone else’s work? Try doing a little work yourself. You have no right. No access to anything that is not yours. To bad. So sorry.

(TS) Dennis everyone has the right to feel a certain way and many feel as i do as i've come across it often on the internet but as long as there are people who will shell out many of the exhorbitant prices as seen for much of the newer stuff out there it will continue giving others a license to selfishly pimp their animals for their own profit. Now you might be okay with these practices and even okay with the fact that jacking prices are are fair to the entire herp community which is an opinion your entitled to but i and many think it stinks and rightfully so which has nothing to do with wanting the 'Rights' per se to anothers work as in the grand scheme of things everyone in there herp field for the greater part deals with this as best they can and waits and waits and it just seems as excited as some breeders are to share to genuinely show any of their latest morphs to the world that at least some would equally want to put them into the hands of everyone by readily making them easily more accessible price wise so that all those out of the loop are reached with an equal amount of love and can also enjoy these wonders but sure enough that doesn't seem to be the case and yes if i ever produced something unique i wouldn't resort nor feel the need for outlandish prices giving all the chance in finest traditions of herpetology whom wish to an equal chance to acquire them with prices that reflect this rather than keeping herps as hostages for profit let alone thinking about my own pocket which horrific and a very ugly practice.



As per the other gentlemen whom was asking me to find a bridge to crawl under and the little troll bit you might have some previous experience in it so will leave that job to you not bothering with anyone that resorts to nor stoops to your level.

You still didn't answer my question on why you would bring up a year old thread in which to post you rant. If it has nothing to do with enigmas or Kelli, then why?

Time to start going through metal detectors when entering herp shows. TS's posts seem like some sort of a manifesto.

TS keeps mentioning the 'traditions of herpetology'. I don't understand this concept, other than the tendency of scientists to share knowledge amongst their peers. There is a difference between herpetology and herpetoculture. Very few people on this board or other reptile boards online are herpetologists. Most are enthusiasts, hobbyists, and some breeders, and as such may not be familiar with the best or finest traditions of herpetology you speak of. Many 'breeders' sell their herps as a business, and use the profits to cover or offset the expenses to care for their animals, pay back their investment into the hobby/business, or in rare cases make a living.

If you disregard TS's complaint that he cannot afford (or doesn't want to pay for) high-priced morphs and they should be priced within his budget, some of his comments stink of socialism. Lucky for him, he can see the best socialism has to offer this year. This is a unique opportunity I recommend to anyone who may think this sort of government is a good idea, or for those who take our freedoms for granted. If you decide to go, be sure to check out the DOS website covering travel there. Some info on supply and demand.

TS's comments about 'holding herps as hostages for profit' and 'pimping' their herps reminds me of groups such as PETA's beliefs that no animals should be kept in captivity.

My recommendation to you, TS, if you are intent on getting some of the rarer, more expensive morphs, is to save up some money and purchase some hets or wait just a little while for the prices to drop. Prices for high-end leopard geckos usually plummet in 1-2 years, so you won't have to wait very long. Once you start breeding them, you can work to outcross them into other morphs, create your own niche, and offer those at whatever price you seem appropriate.

Originally Posted by truthstingz

(TS) Yes i agree with you to a degree as everyone does have the right to do as they please which i guess includes leaving the greater portion of the herpetological community out of the loop whom are no less equally deserving and does anyone even care or take a moment to consider how this makes others feel as a whole or a you saying im the only person on earth displeased with such practices i think not which would truly be foolish considering how many other threads across the forums on the net mention this very type of practice as way out of control serving only the best interests of the almighty dollar.

You know its little whiny ass sissy boys like you who are too scared to let go of momma's apron strings and actually do something for yourself thats ruining this country and our hobby. I bet you grew up getting anything and everything you wanted if you threw a big enough fit. Your parents should have busted your ass a little more when you were a child.

I tell you what buddy, pack your bags and sell all your belongings so you can move to North Korea or China where everything is shared and see if you like it there.
Better yet, quit your freaking whining and join the military. I am sure they would be more than happy to send you to a country where you can experience your socialism first hand.

NUFF SAID........

Its pretty obvious the only socialism you seem to know or understand is profits since at least even Kelli understood some of the points i made had merit which shows how much bigger of a person she is regardless of how or what she chooses to do with her reptiles in general which either way is understood nor was aimed at her but since she chose to respond first so did i and at least i appreciate her honesty as much as i value my own opinions, As far why i chose an old post i didn't choose anything and just found that page and decided to post the obvious sentiments of many others which have been echoing around and which i happen to believe in as well. And all my animals i got at decent prices rather than paying exhorbitant ones and yes the include many of the newer morphs like the mack super snows and select albinos as others as i would never give a cent to anyone charging a grand or or over nor anywhere close which is R I D I C U L O U S and very ugly.
Yes i also know the difference between herpetology and herpetoculture and using certain words as a metaphor or figure of speech as captive breeding is also a part of herpetology but you can just ask a zoo if your unclear since im not.
You can all choose to be hostile and thats okay too including you ken as either way this is a forum and in forums people speak on topics that interest them or what they feel or wish to share and though my views and those of many others for obvious reasons may not correlate with any of you deep down many know darn well what i meant which you guys obviously decided must be directly tied to my individual needs or wants as opposed to the needs or wishes consistently echoed by so many whom will also obviously continue to remain last on list of priorities which not a single one of you seem to acknowledge or hint at caring about although i'll make an exception since at least Kelli to a degree understood some of what was meant. Bash me if you will thats cool too but exhorbitant prices are shameful and a great dis-service to the heaven knows how many forcing them out of the loop or to stand on the sidelines patiently watching and waiting for all unfold and none here really care about that since its business is business right?
Damn we're sure living in some strange times.