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SOUND OFF!!! Ever have something REALLY bugging you and nowhere to vent about it? Well, this is the place. It does not have to be fauna oriented at all! Get it off your chest right here.

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Old 05-03-2004, 12:54 PM   #31
Reptile Locators
Chris I do agree with you in some aspects of suing a fast food business no matter what company they are,althoe their are many that serve unhealthy foods. they also offer other foods that are not bad for a person and it is everyones choice to take responcability for how they eat. the fast food place does not odere for a person a person orders for them selves. a person suing a fats food place for the coffe being to hot the cheaseburger beig saturated in grease, hell what's next the ice was to cold!) Is just someones bad judgment and lack of character,and looking for the easy way out of taking on the responcability for their own actions.

I being a cigarette smoker and yet knowing it is going to take my life in the long run feeling the efects of what smoking is doing to me, I made that choice to smoke. even thoe I started out smoking because i wanted to fit in with the crowd that was cool and doing it. which the point i am trying to make is, I made the choice to smoke and it will have to be my choise to stop. not anyone else but me!

So yes their are some of thoes who will balme others for their physical looks rite or wrong we as people can only be the one to change what we do as an individual person, no matter if it is what we eat how we act or how we Represent of selves in our appearences.

i am not sure where this topic is going, and will ad that the other post i have made were my opinions on judging someone with out knowing what or why a person is before knowing the situation by their appearence. nor was i basing it on the use of deciding on a spouce/mate

I base my opinions on who i am as a individule and my sincer compasion towards other with respect and regards to other individuals as an individual people, i know i have not allways made the best of choices in my 39 going on 40 years but i would hope that my judgement is directed form my heart.

We all make snap dicissions in life good or bad yet the good thing is their is allways time to change as a person for the better, knowing that you will find a true friend a commited lover,wife or husban is worth it's weight in (GOLD) and this can not allways be achieved just from choosing by the appearence of a person.
 
Old 05-03-2004, 01:35 PM   #32
TurtleManiac24
Wow. Sorry if I sound mean but it AMAZES me how people get by in life without being able to spell or properly form a sentence.
 
Old 05-03-2004, 04:54 PM   #33
Sybella
Quote:
Originally posted by TurtleManiac24
I disagree, I think "having to deal with" different colors, sizes, etc. is one of the greatest parts of life. So you're saying it's great that there's no diversity online? I don't think so...
Sorry I don't mean to nitpick or anything but I am trying to make my point as well.
Oh no!!! You misunderstood! I think diversity is one of the best parts of life as well...I love cultures, peoples, traditions and more. But, in this medium, the negative aspects are greatly reduced, therefore making it a more enjoyable experience. People make issues out of everything, from size to color to disability and more. It's all part of the "packaging" and to me, packages don't matter.

My 3 best friends have all died; 2 in '97 and the 3rd last December. One was black and blind, another was breastless, toothless and rail thin because of cancer and the 3rd was grossly obese because of serious health issues. It was their hearts and minds that I connected with and I miss them terribly.
 
Old 05-03-2004, 04:58 PM   #34
Sybella
Quote:
Originally posted by wilomn
I think there's a lot of lumping going on in this thread. It seems that what each person is personally attracted to as far as a potential mate has been lumped with what you think of as attractive in a friend.

These are often two radically different ideals with radically different criteria for each.

I know guys that won't date anything but skinny blondes. I know others that want some "meat" on their women.

I know some women that won't even consider dating a man who is slightly over weight and won't even talk to an obese guy.

However, all these people have "friends" that do NOT fit into the potential mate criteria.

Being single I know that when I see someone I think is attractive I do wonder if she fits my ideal, the one I think we all carry in our heads, for what I would like my potential mate to look like.

This generally lasts a nanosecond or so, unless she's just DAMN HOT, in which case it may last several seconds, then I wonder what kind of PERSON she is. Is she honest, kind to children and elderly, like animals, tolerant of others and their myriad foibles.

It is human nature to be attracted to certain looks in people. This has been scientifically proven in many studies. It is INDIVIDUAL intelligence that allows us to look past looks to see the person within.

One of my good friends has a beautiful face and a gorgous head of hair, she's a sweet person and just as nice as you could wish for. She also weighs at least 400 lbs. No exageration. When we go out in public I see the looks she gets. Terrible. She had some tough times and has been heavy since she was a child. I've known her for many years. She will probably always be heavy. It is, in my opinion, her fault that she is so big as she does eat all the wrong foods in all the wrong quantities and she knows this. She's just not ready to do anything about it. Oh well, I still like her.

Too much is made of looks, especially out here in LALA land. Some of the "beautiful" people are the biggest buttwads out there and this I also know from first hand experiance.

If you're talking about attraction as a potential mate then looks most definately play a part in attraction. Even to a lesser extent in who you have as friends this plays a part.

However again, it can be over come by use of your brain. If you know that looks don't make the person and you are not looking for that potential mate then you simply have to decide if YOU can handle being seen with someone who falls below, or better yet, outside, the parameters of your mate search.

Good people don't always come in pretty packages. Conversely pretty packages don't always have pretty people in them.

It's hard to make this clearer. We're hardwired to look for certain things. We're able to decide not to use those hardwired criteria in regards to people in general, whether for friendship or just to pass them by on the street without a negative comment about how they should lose weight, we have the ability to chose how to treat them based on something besides looks.

At least, some of us are. There are, unfortunately, some who simply cannot see past the looks of people.

They are, to me at least, the really ugly ones.

Wes Pollock
Wes, I'm blown away...this is so well said!
 
Old 05-03-2004, 11:42 PM   #35
ms_terese
Finances & Weight?

Interesting article in USA Today this morning. I will try to copy and paste, as I'm not sure how long the link will be functional for.

The question that I kept going back to after reading the article was: are people heavier because they are lower income, or do the same issues that cause them to be heavier also cause them to earn less?

Anywho:

Can only the rich afford to be thin?
By Nanci Hellmich, USA TODAY
Like millions of Americans, Christine Davies would like to lose a little weight. The 37-year-old paralegal from Tacoma, Wash., says she's 30 pounds heavier than she should be.
And like millions of Americans, she has experimented with whatever is the diet du jour. But in each case, not for long. It wasn't just the discipline required. It was the price tag. (Related item: Diet plans are budget busters)

"I tried both the Atkins and South Beach diets, but pound for pound, protein is a lot more expensive than carbs," she says. "The South Beach diet recommends fish about three times a week. I'd have to eat canned tuna three times a week to afford it, and I get tired of eating the same foods.

"Plus, you have to cook everything yourself," she says. "Following it on a day-to-day schedule would be completely impossible because of the complexity of the recipes and the cost of the foods."

She'll get little argument from Phil Lempert, one of the nation's leading experts on food prices and grocery-store shopping. Using exclusive data from AC Nielsen and menus from the best-selling diet books, Lempert calculates that strict adherence to the low-carb, meat lovers' Atkins diet would cost about $100 a week (presuming you eat all meals at home). The salmon-rich South Beach diet priced out at almost $90 a week.

Too expensive for you? Make substitutions

Some experts with the Atkins and South Beach diets say there are ways to pare down the cost of following those plans, although it may require eating the same foods more often.
The trick is to make trade-offs.

Marie Almon, a registered dietitian who works with cardiologist Arthur Agatston, author of The South Beach Diet, suggests that cost-conscious dieters:

• Use the recipes with chicken breasts instead of the ones with salmon and orange roughy.

• Buy a deep green lettuce that's on sale instead of endive and mixed greens.

• Use lean boiled ham instead of Canadian bacon.

• Substitute less expensive fresh or frozen vegetables such as green beans for more costly ones.

Colette Heimowitz, a nutritionist for the Atkins companies, says adherents to that plan can trim costs by using lower-cost proteins, such as tofu, eggs, stews and cheaper cuts of chicken and meats.

And no matter what diet you're on, whether one of the trendy plans or a more tradional weight-loss program, it probably will be less expensive if you cook at home. "You can cook for so much less, and you can provide a much better diet for your family," says Marilyn Townsend, a nutrition specialist at the University of California-Davis.

She blames some of Americans' weight problems on lack of cooking ability. Still, she concedes, given the pressures of earning a living and keeping a house, "cooking is not on many people's radar as a valuable skill."






That's far more than the $35 that Davies spends at the grocery store each week to feed herself.

And it's not just fad diets that can be costly. Some traditional weight-loss and good-nutrition diets recommended by major health groups emphasize lean meat, fish and a wide variety of fresh fruits and vegetables, all pretty pricey for Davies, who feeds a family of four, including two children, ages 10 and 4, and a stay-at-home husband, on a pasta-and-hot-dogs food budget.

To help ends meet on a $42,000-a-year salary ($26,000 after taxes and health insurance premiums), she shops at several stores to get the best food prices. But salmon is $4 to $7 a pound, compared with hot dogs for $1 a pound. She sticks to lower-priced fruits such as apples and bananas, rarely splurging on berries, grapes, peaches or plums.

Bottom line: Dieting is too expensive for Davies and millions of Americans like her. Nutrition experts are beginning to worry that America's war on obesity might be lost because, for many people, it costs too much — in time and in money.

"The rich can afford to be thin in America, and the poor can't," says Barry Popkin, a nutrition professor at the school of public health at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill.

"If you make a decent income and decide to lose some weight, you can eat grilled chicken, salads and fresh mango, and play a little tennis," says Adam Drewnowski, director of the Center for Public Health Nutrition at the University of Washington-Seattle. "But a person in a lower-paying job or working two or three jobs is in no position to do that.

"To suggest to the lower middle class or poor that they eat a diet filled with foods like red snapper, radicchio, fresh tomatoes, baby lamb chops, olive oil and merlot wine is blatant economic elitism."

Lower income, overweight

Federal researchers are studying the relationship between lower incomes and higher percentages of overweight, but some government statistics already show that link:

About 60.5% of people who earn $15,000 to $75,000 are overweight or obese, compared with 56% of people who earn more than $75,000, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's 2002 Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, a large state-based telephone system in which 250,000 participants report their own weight and height. (When adults are actually weighed and measured, about 65% of people overall weigh too much.)

The disparity is even more obvious when it comes to obesity (30 or more pounds overweight), according to the National Health Interview Survey from 1999 to 2001. For people below the poverty level, which was then defined as anyone with an annual household income of less than about $17,000, about 26% were obese, compared with 18% of those with incomes of $67,000 or more.

Drewnowski, who reviewed the latest research and published a review article on the subject in the January issue of American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, is not surprised.

"What's really cheap are foods made with refined flour, added sugar and corn syrup and added fat." People with limited income, he says, "buy foods that fill them up, and who's to blame them? They get the most calories for their money."

Indeed, calorie per calorie, chips are usually cheaper than fresh asparagus; bulk cookies are less expensive than raspberries. Sure, rice and beans are inexpensive, Drewnowski says. "But it's kind of patrician to say, 'The rich can eat a diet high in antioxidants with lots of vegetables and salmon, but for everyone else, rice and beans are good enough.' "

Beyond pricing, access also could be a problem for people who are not as well off. Numerous studies have found that grocery stores in lower-income areas offer far fewer healthful food options.

'Food deserts'

Troy Blanchard, an assistant professor of sociology at Mississippi State University in Starkville, did an analysis that examined where large supermarkets and super-center stores are located in comparison with the U.S. population and found pockets of what he describes as "food deserts" — some in inner-city neighborhoods, but some in more generalized areas. He cites, for example, a large swath from North Dakota down through West Texas as having many major "food deserts."

People who live in these "deserts" typically need to drive or take a bus for a half-hour or more to get to a major store; otherwise they need to rely on small grocery stores, convenience markets and "hybrid gas stations" where they choose from a smaller selection of food items at higher prices, Blanchard says. The stores may have hot dogs, fried chicken, doughnuts, deli meats, frozen pizza, pork rinds, candy and some canned foods, but they don't have many — if any — fresh fruits and vegetables.

Most of the poor in America live in urban areas and have "crummy" grocery stores where they often pay more for poorer-quality food, Popkin says.

What's on the menu?

And that pretty much puts the nation's most popular diets out of reach. One day's menu on the South Beach diet, for example, includes fresh strawberries, Mediterranean chicken salad, spinach-stuffed salmon fillet, tossed salad with olive oil, and chocolate-dipped strawberries.

One day on the Atkins 45-grams-of-carbs-a-day plan includes tomato stuffed with shrimp salad, braised short ribs, Canadian bacon, raspberries and a green salad with vinaigrette. Hardly the kinds of items you'd find in a convenience market.

Still, Davies says, cost may be the biggest hurdle for most people trying to win the battle of the bulge. And no new academic study or government statistics are likely to convince her otherwise.

"There's a perception that people spend their food budget on processed foods such as cans of Spaghettios and boxes of macaroni and cheese because they are too lazy to eat healthy. But I think people would eat a lot healthier if they could afford to purchase fresh foods."

Contributing: Anthony DeBarros

Sidebar article:


Diet plans: Budget busters
By Nanci Hellmich, USA TODAY
Taking a few inches off your waist can also take a good chunk out of your pocketbook — especially if you go with the wildly popular Atkins or South Beach diet. "Be prepared to dip into your budget," grocery guru Phil Lempert warns.

Phil Lempert is the author of Being the Shopper: Understanding the Buyer's Choice.
By Bob Riha Jr., USA TODAY

USA TODAY asked Lempert to calculate the cost for a dieter to stick to the meal plans on the low-carb Atkins program and the fish-and-fowl-rich South Beach diet. For comparison purposes, he also analyzed the cost of following the government's Thrifty Food Plan, which was created by the Department of Agriculture not for weight loss but to help budget-conscious consumers meet the nutritional recommendations of the Food Guide Pyramid and the Dietary Guidelines for Americans. (Related item: Can only the rich afford to be thin?)

Using national grocery store data provided exclusively by AC Nielsen and his own supermarket research, Lempert analyzed the first three days of meal plans from Atkins for Life by Robert C. Atkins, three days of meals from Phase 2 of The South Beach Diet by Arthur Agatston, and three days of the Thrifty Food Plan. In each case, his calculations were based on the cost for one person to cook all meals at home.

A caveat: Food prices vary among regions and supermarkets, and measurements of ingredients aren't always precise, but Lempert's totals should give dieters a realistic idea of how big a bite their diet will take from their grocery budget.

When a specific brand of a product was not given in the meal plan, Lempert used store and generic brands to keep costs down. He also cut costs by, among other things, using the price of farm-raised salmon instead of wild salmon.

Meet the expert

Phil Lempert is one of the country's leading experts on supermarket shopping. He also is:
• Author of five books on the topic, including Being the Shopper: Understanding the Buyer's Choice.

• Founder of www.supermarketguru.com

• Food editor of NBC's Today show

• Host of the WOR syndicated radio show Shopping Smart






His findings:

• The Atkins diet's ongoing weight-loss phase (45 grams of carbs a day) averaged $14.27 a day, ranging from $11.04 to $15.97.

• South Beach diet's Phase 2 averaged $12.78 a day, ranging from $11.16 to $14.90.

• The Thrifty Food Plan from the USDA (www.cnpp.usda.gov/Pubs/Cookbook/thriftym.pdf) averaged $6.22 a day, ranging from $6 to $6.61. (The government's calculation is slightly lower.)

"The more I've worked on this, the more it has really become apparent that our obesity problem in the U.S. is directly linked to the fact that eating foods that are healthy or in this case lower carb costs more," Lempert says. "It's hard for lower-income and middle-income people to be on these diets. We need to help this population eat healthier."

The salmon-based dinners on the Atkins and South Beach menus, for example, are far more expensive than the ground beef and noodle casserole in the government's diet. Also, the olive oil, berries, fresh vegetables and wide variety of other ingredients in the recipes for these programs cost more than the fruits and vegetables used in the government plan, he says.
 
Old 05-03-2004, 11:43 PM   #36
TurtleManiac24
Sybella-
I'm SO sorry to hear about your friends! I personally had to watch my mother and uncle die from cancer and it was horrible. I've lost my share of friends too, only it was not to death. It was due to the fact that they could not "deal" with my depression after the traumatizing event that I spoke of before.
I agree with Wes completely. I could not have said it any better. It's the inside that counts, and the "ugliest" people are those who look only skin deep.
 
Old 05-06-2004, 07:43 AM   #37
j tyler
I can't believe how shallow some people are:

1) How do you know when someone is a good person ? What gives you the ability to judge? What criteria do you use? How do you establish the core of someones personality? How do you know you are a good person? Are your self referential judgements valid? Who says we only have one personality? What do you do if someone is constantly changing?

2) Persons very often use "personality" as a mask, cover, facade etc. to manipulate or decieve others. How many times have you made mistakes about someone you thought was decent?...or gotten divorced? Human beings are experts at misleading others and themselves ;when do you decide you are not being manipulated?

3) If you really value diversity why not value some people based on their looks? To value people simply based on some kind undefined personality seems very superficial. On the otherhand, a good deal of people who yap about diversity are speaking about ethnic and racial diversity and that is judging people based on looks. Or better yet, if you want to be diverse you should include people who base their opinions on looks.

4)What makes you think that a person with what you call a good personality is in fact worth knowing? Would'nt you value a nasty person who,say, found a cure for cancer?

I expect Herpers to be a little more thoughtful than this thread has demonstrated. When I read some of the cliches you people spout like " dont judge abook by its cover" etc I detect people who have NO personality at all.
 
Old 05-06-2004, 11:25 AM   #38
Python Dreams
I agree with j tyler. ALot of people like to make points about "not judging a book by its cover", but you can make some judgements. Im in allright shape, could probably lose 8 or 10 pounds of fat. When I see someone in perfect shape, guy or girl, I only wish that I had the discipline to be in that kind of shape. I wish just for once you could see a six pack and not have to take a guestimate.. :-) Dont get me wrong, I am in pretty good shape, but not perfect. I'm not talking about body builders either, to me that is taking it way too extreme. Nor extremely skinny people (aneroxics, etc.. spelling?), but just someone in perfect shape. It tells you they are disciplined, hard working people that take themselves and their health very seriously. I have alot of respect for these people for these reasons alone. They already are one up, now start with their personality. Could be very ugly on the inside, but I don't think obesity is a sure sign of a great personality? It could go on and on but comes down to wether you can look past your own flaws and give someone the respect they deserve for actually treating their body how we all should.
Tom Baker
 
Old 05-06-2004, 01:19 PM   #39
TurtleManiac24
Sorry but his original post still sticks with me.

"I just got back from visiting someone in the hospital. The place was crawling with fat slobs. I am sick and tired of grossly obese women wearing shorts and having their thighs rub together. People in this country are constantly complaining about indecency, but I think having to view these people who are ugly and and don't care about themselves is the most indecent thing we are exposed to."

Your assumption that all "fatties" are "fat slobs" is what annoys me. I can give credit where it's due... there are many lovely, outwardly beautiful people as well. But judging a person SOLELY on their looks is something that only ignorant people do. If you don't stop to look deeper then there's something seriously wrong with you. Just my opinion.
 
Old 05-06-2004, 02:01 PM   #40
om kalthoum
J. Tyler -

Hey kid. There have been a lot of words written since your original post, but still I wait in vain for a photo of you so I can judge for myself where you fall in the looks department. You also avoided my two questions. How about answering? I guessed that you are unmarried and between the ages of 15 and 25. Actually, I figured you were no older than 21, but was trying to give myself a better chance at being correct. Why do I consider those points important? Because it is clear that you are someone extremely lacking in experience.

Just to remind everyone of your original observations – You’d just visited a hospital that was “crawling with fat slobs.” It seemed to be the “grossly obese women wearing shorts and having their thighs rub together" that bothers you the most (interesting, though, that you just HAVE to look. Hmmm.). Anyway, you told us you consider such people “ugly” and that having to look at them is “the most indecent thing” you have experienced.

You have led a very sheltered life, indeed, if looking at fat women (but not fat men?) is the most indecent thing you’ve experience in your probably brief life. But come on now, you brought up the subject. So post that photo so we can have a look at you, sweet thing!

Probably many here seen that cartoon of the two dogs - one is sitting at a desk using a computer and has his head turned toward another canine sitting on the floor. The one using the computer is telling the other animal “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”
 

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