IBD and Chameleon Condo

Hello everyone,
My name is Dan Gorfain. I own DGReptiles and post ads with kingsnake. I have breeding albino burmese pythons for 8 years now and own the following collection: Breeding pair of albino burmese pythons & 12 of their '04 babies, '03 tiger retic., '03 albino retic., large silver retic., and four early '04 boas that have been in my breeding room (with burms and retics)for almost 7 months now. I only breed burms right now, and do not buy/resell. On, 10/29/04, I purchased three, female,"co-dom, jungle, aberrant boas" from Mike Klein, owner of Chameleon Condo. The boas were supposedly 'flawless' and in perfect condition. Upon arrival, they all exhibited mild to severe respiratory illness, which I immediately notified Mike of. They were not shipped with heat packs, and he said the respiratory problems were probably due to the fact that the temps were low that week. He told me to hang on to them and they should get better. The one with severe respiratory problems started 'swaying' its head back and forth and suddenly died a week later. The other two snakes were slowly getting better but still showed symptoms of illness. I had Nikos Gurfield, DVM, Dipl. ACVP Veterinary Pathologist, San Diego County Animal Disease Diagnostic Laboratory(858)694-2838 perform a necropsy on the dead boa. The report (which I can email, if anyone is interested) stated that the boa died from IBD, or Inclusion body disease. All of these 'female' '04 neonate aberrant boas were apparently housed in one container at Chameleon Condo. I also had Elliott Jacobson(JacobsonE@mail.vetmed.ufl.edu) examine the deceased boa's liver and he concurred that IBD inclusions were present. The deceased 'female' boa turned out to be male, and when I had fecals run on the two remaining boas, Dr.Jenkins (Avian & Exotic Animal Hospital) drexotic@aol.com, they came up positive for 'high concentrations of strongyle worms'. When I notified Mike of the diagnosments (IBD and worms), he partially refunded me $150.00 for the snake that died from IBD. He also said he would, 'take care of my situation and notify the other buyers that bought babies that were housed with the IBD carrier'. When I questioned him on what 'taking care of my situation', meant, he did not respond. I also asked him who the breeder was, and he did not respond. After that, he has not returned my phone calls and/or emails. The good news is: I have a strict quarrantine routine and use seperate cleaning supplies and even a seperate sink for the breeder and quarrantine room and vigorously wash my hands several times with warm, soapy water and always handle the quarrantine animals last. From what I understand, burmese and retics seem especially suceptible and are not 'asymptomatic carriers' like boas. Apparently, most pythons die fairly quickly, and exhibit some sort of neurosis when infected with IBD. None of my snakes show any symptoms or signs of distress and have been kept seperate from the quarrantine area, which is on the other side of the house in a different room. Since this occured, I have stopped selling the baby albino burms and have been keeping them with the other four, early '04 boas (the only other boas I own) to see if they show any signs of distress or infection. Nothing in my breeder room has shown any sign of illness or infection. I also had the opportunity to have a necropsy done on an '04, premature, ligated, albino burm that I had been force-feeding since birth. The necropsy (done by previously mentioned Dr. Gurfield) came back negative for IBD: Cause of death was kidney failure (I can email report), which was obviously good news. It's a good thing I am OCD about quarrantine and use seperate cleaning supplies, or it could have turned out much different. Has anyone else had any experience with receiving snakes from Mike at Chameleon Condo that have died from IBD or have been diagnosed with IBD? Also, If anyone that is not a breeder and preferably doesn't own any other reptiles would like to provide a home for the remaining two siblings, I will give them to you at absolutely no charge. I will even pay shipping costs. They are really awesome-looking jungle-ish boas with nice peaches coming in. I will absolutely never breed them though (as even liver biopsies are not 100%), and they are just a hazard to my collection. If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. Thank you.

Dan Gorfain
DGReptiles

Man, that sucks. Good luck.

I believe I know who the breeder is, but I cannot be 100% sure, so I prefer not to post it here. If you would like to email me privately, I will share it with you. You can contact me at mdcrabe@hotmail.com or you can call me at (925) 212-1039. This is a crappy situation and I wish you the best of luck.

Matt Crabe

Sorry to hear about your troubles and the suffering of those animals but this is not suprising considering the vendor. Hopefully this will be the last Chameleon Condo thread we see here because by now just about everyone should know you are playing with fire if you are thinking about doing business with "honest" Mike Klein - Chameleon and Snake people alike. Hopefully you got all business related dealings in writing because Mike LOVES to push a deal through over the phone so that there is no paper trail to come back and bite him in the @$$ with when he pawns off sick animals.

Best of luck,
Matt Jillson

Maybe I'm out of line but I would euthanize those two if they were in contact with the one with IBD. I wouldn't even give them away. The possibility of them being able to spread the disease isn't worth having them around.
Mark Westberg

I bought 1.2 of those jungles from Mike. One of the females you can obviously tell is not from the same litter. I think it is a Nic. When I tried to get the breeder info from him he just avoided my phone calls and emails. He also hasn't contacted about this IBD situation of course. I have had them for about three months now and they are doing fine.
I will definately never do business with Mike again.


Tom Stokes

Further thinking the situation, I would have to agree with Mark on this one....

I had emailed Dan and told him I would be happy to sell his Boas for him to people that only wanted them as pets, and I would send him the money when they sold.... upon further contemplation of this, it is always possible that whoever I sell them to (for whatever reason), would then turn around and re-sell them as adults to someone else who wouldn't know of their ailment (or possibility, thereof).... you can just never be sure.... with that in mind, it's probably best to just euthanize them and prevent all future problems.... I feel very bad for the poor little babies, and I hate to see ANY animal put down, but, sometimes it's for the best....

Neil

Thanks for the info. everyone, I am now thinking I should euthanize the two sivlings that have been in contact with the one that died from IBD. Does anyone else have any suggestions? Thanks again.

Coach,

Please feel free to contact me through email. As was stated earlier in this post, it is better to have things in writing than just a phone conversation ending in a he said / she said battle.

Thanks,
Matt Crabe
mdcrabe@hotmail.com

I wanted to let everyone know how I came to the decision to give the two baby boas, that were exposed to IBD, up for adoption. I don’t want people ‘in the business’ to think it was a bad decision, or at least a non-calculated one. It was difficult, but I was ready to euthanize the two boas (even though they appeared healthy) because I hadn’t found anyone I was comfortable with to donate them to. However, I spoke with Jennifer Pellette and her husband (A vet technician) and couldn’t believe how ideal they were for the situation. She was looking to buy a snake(s) for their kids when they came upon my forum post. She has owned a red tail before but owns no snakes at this time and isn’t planning to buy any others. She is not ‘in the business’ and has no intention of ever breeding, trading, or otherwise giving the snakes away. If something comes up she will notify me first. At her prompting she posted her information on ‘repti-forum’ and will also email monthly photographic updates to me (I told her I was posting the info. on BOI as well). Just to be OCD, I had her sign an ‘adoption form’ stating this information and more. I would not have given them away if I thought there was a chance of them getting back into someone’s collection (whether they were aware of the situation or not). I omitted her phone number and email, so if anyone wants any further information, including photo updates, please contact myself at DGReptiles. I just 'copy-clipped' the email I sent her, but if anyone wants a scan of the original signed document, please let me know . Also, the purchase date was 9/27/04 and not 10/29/04 as I had previously posted. Thanks again for all the information everyone has posted regarding this subject and please feel free to contact me with any questions. Thanks again.

Dan Gorfain
DGReptiles
(858) 273-6301


ADOPTION FORM:

First name: Jennifer Last name:Pellette
Age:25
Address:817 Morse Ave.
City:Albany State:Or. Zip:97321
Phone:xxx-xx-xxxx Email:xxxxxxxxxxxx

Animal(s) being adopted:
(originally purchased by DGReptiles from Mike Klein at Chameleon Condo on 9/27/04 via Paypal)

(1) '04 aberrant, boa (Central American/Nicaraguan) Disposition: Feisty
(1) '04 aberrant, boa (BCI, light colored, clean, jungle-ish) Disposition: Docile


Reason for adoption: Animals were purchased under false pretenses as to their locality as well as being exposed to IBD prior to purchase and prior to being shipped to DGReptiles and are considered a hazard to the other snakes at the facilities of DGReptiles.


The person stated in this form will hereby be referred to as the 'adopter' for the remainder of this document.


These boas will under NO CIRCUMSTANCES be used for breeding purposes, sold, traded, given away, or otherwise leave the care of the adopter. If at some point in time, the adopter cannot care for the previously mentioned boas, Dan Gorfain at DGReptiles will be notified and preparations will be made to find another home. While in the care of the adopter, there will be no breeding activities of any reptiles at the facilities stated herein. A monthly photographic update will be sent from the adopter to DGReptiles while the previously mentioned boas are in the care of the adopter. There is no fee associated with this transaction, and all shipping costs will be paid by DGReptiles.


If the conditions of this document are agreeable, please sign/date and return to DGReptiles for finalizing of transaction.



Signature: Jennifer l. Pellette Date:12-11-04