Pat Kline - neutral review

I have looked at Dart Frog Depot's Facebook page and website and cannot find any faq or live arrival guarantee statement.

That is rather unfortunate, since it does not provide any clear guidelines of expectation between buyer and seller. It also means there is nothing to truly fall back on when a situation arises, as neither can use those guidelines to protect themselves when something goes wrong.

It is always worth asking whether there is a live arrival or health guarantee, and what the conditions of it are if it exists. The lack of a written guarantee would steer me away from any seller. If there is no guarantee at all, I would not purchase from them, full stop.

If the seller decides to come to this thread, perhaps they can clarify if they have a guarantee and where to find it if they do.

Originally Posted by hurreckon

Since you apparently know more about frogs (since you're judging someone else's knowledge), please inform us how sitting in a deli cup for a few hours killed this frog. Why did it only kill one and not the others?

This is pretty easy as one common cause of death in this manner is ammonia toxicity... Fecal material and excreted ammonia from normal metabolic processes can reach toxic levels.

Capture myopathy is another way in which a single animal can die from being restrained in a relatively small volume while undergoing shipping (stimulus) from which it cannot escape such (in this case) as shaking, noise and vibrations during transit. It is one of the reasons that wild animals may fail to adapt to captivity and it is a well known phenomena for conservation programs. Was the frog wild caught?? If so then there would be a greater risk of issues from this as in some cases the physiological effects of stress can be cumulative.

some comments

Ed

I see several people saying that Nicole is putting the blame of the frog's death on the seller... but that is not what her post read to me.

Now at this point I am not going to place full blame on the seller for the death of this frog, because sometimes things happen! However I do believe he shares partial responsibility in the matter since he had not fully informed me of the procedures that should be followed in shipping and receiving frogs and toads.

I think not giving a tracking number and not accurately labeling the box live animals (if it was indeed not labeled as such) does merit that this is at least partially the seller's fault. It is important to always provide your customer with a tracking # - because Fedex does often leave boxes without so much as a knock.

Playing devil's advocate, I think the fact that Nicole did state she was going to have to work left some burden of responsibility on Mr. Kline. No, it isn't fully his responsibility to realize that meant that they'd sit in deli cups, but if someone told me "Can you ship this animal to my hub? I have to work that day" and it was something I deemed fragile and likely to suffer from that, I would definitely ask them what time they got off work, and try to make arrangements around their schedule.

I'd say this was probably 75% buyer error, but I do think that there was some mishandling on the seller's part. Not enough to make me think he's a bad guy - far from - but I do think that given the information he had, it was not a stretch to figure out she wouldn't be able to unpack until late.

Side note, 5pm is not that wildly terrible. For more remote locations, FedEx doesn't even guarantee delivery until 4:30. Do frog sellers not sell to people in such locations?

Spot on, Jamie.

That said, I won't exactly put 75% blame on buyer error. Frogs and other amphibians do often sit in cups for many hours before, during and after live shows. We also do not know where, when and how the seller acquired these animals. WC or CB?

Seller has no FAQ or live arrival guarantee. Seller, according to the OP, did NOT mark the package as "live animal" nor provide a tracking number. Neither party has control over whether or not FedEx knocks on the door or rings the doorbell.

The OP only placed a "neutral" post here, not a "bad guy" post, and also did NOT specifically blame the seller for the frog's death, nor is she asking for a refund. Additionally, she said the other frogs are fine, doing great and she is happy.

Sheesh

Tracking number was sent to the email provided to me, if for some reason the program screwed up and you didn't receive I you could have asked and I would have gladly resent to you, I honesty don't remembering you saying undidnt receive
Our guarantee is live arrival as with the industry's standard w frogs, some don't even guarantee the live arrival, but we do
When the option of them sitting in a box a extra 8-10 hours in a hub or her father house, her father's house sounded like a much better option BC they would then be in someone's care she can instruct what to do. Frogs will tox out if they are in the cups too long with out an paper towel change, which I'm assuming occurred. The frog that died was a wild caught Reed frog which do not do well w long exposure to ammonia build up.

this package was delivered at 9:48am Friday morning

Originally Posted by senusenu

When you decided to send them to a person instead of being held at a hub, it was reasonable to think that said person would be able to give them some care or remove them. Many sellers wouldn't agree to shipping if an animal is going to be sitting at the hub for that long either, due to their live arrival gaurantees generally only applying for the first hour immediately following the first delivery attempt or arrival at the hub.

And either way the seller should have made a point to ask, "How long are the animals going to sit in these cups if you are working that day?".

Regardless, you have glossed over the necessity of water, for an amphibian, even if it is nothing more than a gentle spray to keep humidity up.

The frogs may not be sitting in cups for that long with no food, they're probably perfectly fine in that situation. They will still need water.

And being that these animals WERE very well packed, they were fully hydrated. Even when I got them home their paper towels were still wet (not just damp, but actually wet). Hydration is easy to monitor in a cup, and when it comes to amphibian care also pretty obvious. What is NOT as obvious or as readily available in the research I'm being told I didn't do enough of, is how long the frogs can or cannot sit in their cups.

It isn't about perfection, stop it with that strawman nonsense. It's about common sense and knowing even basic care for a critter type you apparently already own.

This "common sense" and knowledge of basic care does NOT say a frog cannot sit in a deli cup for a few extra hours, and as others have stated, it is not beyond expectations that a frog could sit in that deli cup. Again, this comes down to the fact the seller did not clarify with me how long the animals would be sitting in those cups after I said I was working that day.

Nobody says you should know literally everything, in the history of ever. Common sense should tell you that amphibians are more sensitive. It should also tell you that leaving an animal sitting in a box for that amount of time can be very unhealthy.

And being more sensitive does not automatically imply they can't sit in a cup for a couple extra hours. Also, these animals were just "sitting in a box". Strawman, as you said earlier.

In your own screenshots, he says that by sending it to your father's house, he thought they would be removed from the cups sooner. He also, albeit very briefly, explains to you that animals do get care during shows. (Apparently this classifies as a "tantrum" to you.)

He said this AFTER I notified him of the dead frog. These are thing that should have been clarified PRIOR to shipment, when I first inquired. Order of conversation is important. I believe the seller does share some, however small, responsibility in ensuring the buyer understands the guidelines, even if that is so simple as a, "You understand what the frogs need right?".

No seller is going to replace a dead animal that was left sitting in a deli cup for that amount of time.

Also notice I didn't ask for a replacement, nor a refund. I notified the seller. My review is neutral based on customer service. I think the animals were well packed. I also think the seller could have done more to provide better information when I initially inquired.

As to your name- that is a requirement of the website itself.

Rules for Posting on the BOI <-- REQUIRED READING!! (updated 12/30/09)

Unless you are a moderator, this can be construed as an ad hominen.

Originally Posted by senusenu

I have looked at Dart Frog Depot's Facebook page and website and cannot find any faq or live arrival guarantee statement.

That is rather unfortunate, since it does not provide any clear guidelines of expectation between buyer and seller. It also means there is nothing to truly fall back on when a situation arises, as neither can use those guidelines to protect themselves when something goes wrong.

It is always worth asking whether there is a live arrival or health guarantee, and what the conditions of it are if it exists. The lack of a written guarantee would steer me away from any seller. If there is no guarantee at all, I would not purchase from them, full stop.

If the seller decides to come to this thread, perhaps they can clarify if they have a guarantee and where to find it if they do.

And this is precisely why I did not ask for a replacement, nor a refund. There was no stated live arrival guarantee, so I did not expect it. Would have been a nice gesture, but not expected. My whole point here is about customer service. Upon notifying the seller (to keep up good communication), the responsibility and blame was placed on me, AFTER the seller had told me "no problem" when I inquired about having the package held for pick up. This is where I take issue. If it IS going to be a problem, I should have been notified at this initial inquiry. Had I been notified, I could have taken additional precautions, beyond asking my father to visually check them over.

Originally Posted by caffeinecynic

I see several people saying that Nicole is putting the blame of the frog's death on the seller... but that is not what her post read to me.

I think not giving a tracking number and not accurately labeling the box live animals (if it was indeed not labeled as such) does merit that this is at least partially the seller's fault. It is important to always provide your customer with a tracking # - because Fedex does often leave boxes without so much as a knock.

Playing devil's advocate, I think the fact that Nicole did state she was going to have to work left some burden of responsibility on Mr. Kline. No, it isn't fully his responsibility to realize that meant that they'd sit in deli cups, but if someone told me "Can you ship this animal to my hub? I have to work that day" and it was something I deemed fragile and likely to suffer from that, I would definitely ask them what time they got off work, and try to make arrangements around their schedule.

I'd say this was probably 75% buyer error, but I do think that there was some mishandling on the seller's part. Not enough to make me think he's a bad guy - far from - but I do think that given the information he had, it was not a stretch to figure out she wouldn't be able to unpack until late.

Side note, 5pm is not that wildly terrible. For more remote locations, FedEx doesn't even guarantee delivery until 4:30. Do frog sellers not sell to people in such locations?

Thank you. These are precisely my thoughts. Do I hold some responsibility in this? Absolutely. Does the seller also hold some responsibility? Absolutely. That is all I am saying. He is NOT a bad guy in any way shape or form. I'm happy with the packing and the animals received. I am not happy with the customer service and lack of complete answers to my questions (as I now know). That is all.

Originally Posted by LauraB

Spot on, Jamie.

That said, I won't exactly put 75% blame on buyer error. Frogs and other amphibians do often sit in cups for many hours before, during and after live shows. We also do not know where, when and how the seller acquired these animals. WC or CB?

Seller has no FAQ or live arrival guarantee. Seller, according to the OP, did NOT mark the package as "live animal" nor provide a tracking number. Neither party has control over whether or not FedEx knocks on the door or rings the doorbell.

The OP only placed a "neutral" post here, not a "bad guy" post, and also did NOT specifically blame the seller for the frog's death, nor is she asking for a refund. Additionally, she said the other frogs are fine, doing great and she is happy.

Sheesh

Thank you again, for the same reasons as outlined in the previous.

Originally Posted by snared99

Tracking number was sent to the email provided to me, if for some reason the program screwed up and you didn't receive I you could have asked and I would have gladly resent to you, I honesty don't remembering you saying undidnt receive
Our guarantee is live arrival as with the industry's standard w frogs, some don't even guarantee the live arrival, but we do
When the option of them sitting in a box a extra 8-10 hours in a hub or her father house, her father's house sounded like a much better option BC they would then be in someone's care she can instruct what to do. Frogs will tox out if they are in the cups too long with out an paper towel change, which I'm assuming occurred. The frog that died was a wild caught Reed frog which do not do well w long exposure to ammonia build up.

And I do acknowledge I failed to ask for that tracking number when it failed to arrive in my email. When you stated "no problem" in response to my inquiry about the frogs being held for pickup or received for my father, with no additional directions (i.e. make sure they are removed from cups, make sure paper towels are changed, etc), I took that to mean literally there wouldn't be a problem. I've found no information about frogs having to be removed within x number of hours, so yes, I am ignorant on these facts. Now I know. I am taking some responsibility, but my whole point in these reviews is that you too shared some responsibility too, in that you did not provide additional information beyond "no problem". You made assumptions, as did I. We BOTH share responsibility in this matter.

As far as a live arrival guarantee, I did not see one on your page, nor did I inquire, therefore I did not expect a replacement or refund. I would have accepted a refund (as opposed to replacement - refund would have later been spent on additional animals as I was happy with those I received live, up until full responsibility was thrown onto me, and you later told me not to contact you any further and I'm on your "DNS" list in response to my review), but I did not expect it. My whole point in notifying you was to keep up communication, and as a learning experience for both of us. In my case, next time this happens I'll probably wait until someone (myself or my husband) is home to receive the animals and place them directly into their enclosures (as opposed to being held by another person, moved to temporary enclosures, then moved again to get home - which in my mind would add stress). I also now know I shouldn't fully trust what a seller tells me in response to my questions, and perhaps should be even more annoying asking the same question over and over again requesting greater details (I didn't do this simply because I did trust your answer, and did not want to be an annoying basketcase). In your case, you now hopefully realize how dangerous assumptions can be when it comes to buyers. That is really all this is about. I do NOT see you as a bad guy, which is why I specifically stated "neutral" in my subject line - I wanted to make that clear. There were mistakes made on BOTH sides, and that is all I wanted to see acknowledged.

Originally Posted by snared99

this package was delivered at 9:48am Friday morning

My dad called me at 10:32am, so the frogs were sitting out side for a little over a half hour before he found them. That certainly did not help, and perhaps if the box had been marked "live animals" the courier would have knocked. (And perhaps not, but it at least would have increased the likelihood of a knock. And again, I realize you have no control over them, I do not place that responsibility on you, but this also could have been a contributing factor.)

Originally Posted by sorraia

Unless you are a moderator, this can be construed as an ad hominen.

A user was simply trying to ensure you were aware of the rules for posting. Us moderators always appreciate assistance from the user base.

Jessica, I've contacted Nicole and it appears her name field here on fauna is correct. Thank you for your diligence.

Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

A user was simply trying to ensure you were aware of the rules for posting. Us moderators always appreciate assistance from the user base.

Jessica, I've contacted Nicole and it appears her name field here on fauna is correct. Thank you for your diligence.

Considering the tone of her previous reply, I took it as an attempt to discredit me in light of the disagreement here. If that is not the case then I apologize for the misinterpretation. Taking it up in private message would have come across to me better than bringing it up in the middle of a heated discussion.

Originally Posted by snared99

this package was delivered at 9:48am Friday morning

I understand everything you've said, and I am not trying to nitpick, but I genuinely would like to know:

If you have a customer who has a FedEx guaranteed delivery by 4:30, not 10:30, what is your policy on that? Would that have changed anything here? Do you not ship to them? Or...?

This question is serious and not intended to be an attack. I don't keep frogs, and I am given to understand they are quite fragile indeed, but what is confusing me is why anyone would ship them at all if they are prone to dying in transit for a holdover of 8 hours? What happens if there's a FedEx delay and they end up in one of the sort centers an extra day, as sometimes happens? Is it standard that if this happens, it's just... welp, bad luck?

I really do want to know how this is handled in the frog community.

I realize that this extra 8 hour delay was the OP's fault, and because of that, I do not think she deserves a refund - it was her mistake. But she is not asking for one. However... from experience, an 8 hour delay from FedEx is not uncommon at all. Heck, more than 8 hours from FedEx is not uncommon.

Undoubtedly, Nicole was wrong for not having her frogs unboxed immediately. But would this be the same story if FedEx had happened to not deliver until 3 or 4? Because sometimes that happens, for all kinds of reasons...