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Old 05-05-2012, 12:13 PM   #71
Amelanistic Orca
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReptileGeek181 View Post
Good riddance
Thank you! Maybe he should chill the breeding and laying for a second to realize his massive part in this? A male straight to breeding.... No QT. Been doing it for 2 years. I see a collection/yard sale coming in/on/up!
 
Old 05-05-2012, 12:16 PM   #72
FAZE31
Very well said Bob!!!!! I believe as well Brandon should be compensated for this tragedy.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 01:23 PM   #73
DesertRat73
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAZE31 View Post
Did they not provide the proof from the vet?
Yes, I think you should scrutinize it more closely:

.[/quote]
Come on now the snake had five things total wrong with it.[/quote]

It had four actually. The fifth item is a statement of non diagnosis "in the lung, trachea, and heart".

[/quote]Are you trying to say the snake had these problems occur in nine days? [/quote]

I did a brief search on the four items listed, and the items in the comment listed immediately below them. Items 1 & 2 relate to the ulcers which the vet stated in the video were caused by stress. What stress? Being taken from it's secure environment, shipped, handled, and forced to adjust to foreign environments containing other animals(how ever many Tom placed him with to breed), and breeding. Could all this occur in nine days? Yes. It did. Due to the poor choices of the buyer(or his agent, however Tom fits into this).

The other two items relate to the effects of the salmonella, the likely cause of death. Most beings carry around the salmonella bacteria, even us, certainly reptiles. what makes them potent is the number of the bacteria in the system and their access to the blood stream. If they do not gain access to the blood stream they are not an issue. A large enough salmonella colony in the snake could easily cause death in nine days, soo.. Could the snake have picked up enough salmonella bacteria at Toms' to cause this? Yep. Is there a way to know? Not for us. Could the snake have already been carrying the salmonella bacteria prior to shipment? Yep. Is there a way for us to know? Not really. But what if it did have the salmonella prior to shipping? Then the stress of shipping and poor care at it's destination caused the death. Since, as the vet states, the ulcers were caused by stress, that stress is what gave the salmonella their means of entry into the snakes blood stream.

So based on the information we have so far, where the salmonella was contracted is debatable. However, as far as I'm concerned the cause of death is not, that lies squarely on the handling practices it was subjected to. It is quite likely imo that had the snake been quarantined and left alone to adjust instead of being over stressed, the ulcers would not have developed. The outstanding tests may prove me wrong on this, we'll know more when the results come in. Assuming they get posted.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 02:13 PM   #74
ShadowAceD
I feel that great many ball python breeders take for granted how quickly these animals are capable of hitting sexual maturity. I often see males being put in with female after female after female during a season where they relentlessly breed over and over again until either they no longer show interest or enough females become gravid by them. Males successfully complete this task year after year starting from an incredibly young age. That does not, however, mean that the animal does not endure some type of extreme duress in the process.That is a major factor in what transpired in this transaction.

Let me begin by stating that if Brandon, or Thomas (whoever was responsible for the Potion's well being), had quarantined the animal properly, this whole story would be different. However, because that clearly did not happen, it is vastly different.

When you take an animal from an enivornment where it has been living, where it has been breeding, where it has established its "territory", put it in a bag, put it in a box and hand it over to some attendent at a counter to be sent on its way to a shipping process, you are stressing that animal out immensely. Factor in shifts in altitude, a cooler environment, less than graceful handling where it is tossed around, shuffled about and possibly dropped onto conveyer belts and you can multiply the stressful affects. Then, you takes this animal that has been put in a bag, put in a box, thrown around, bumped about and throw him into an enclosure he is not familiar with, has no reason to feel comfortable in and expect him to breed a receptive female. How is that even remotely responsible or in the better interest of the animal?

Oh, wait ... I know why. Dollar signs.

Regardless of if the ball python had the ulcers prior to shipping, regardless of when the ball python contracted salmonella (another one of those things snakes can carry around and never really present, by the way), because the proper methods of quarantine were ignored and because Thomas, or Brandon, or whoever, chose to force that animal into incredibly stressful situations with no regard for its life, they are responsible for his death. When you take the ability to determine just who is the primary factor in an animal's death (had you just put him in quarantine and left him alone to destress and acclimate himself and then he died), I would say that your other animals need to be returned. You did not do this however. No, you let the almighty dollar govern your actions and because you lack patience or any semblence of morality for the Potion, he is dead and you are out in the deal.

Tough. Deal with it.

You cannot prove that the salmonella came from the OP, not when you allowed him to enter your collection to begin fluid swapping with other ball pythons. You cannot prove the ulcers started before you recieved him. You cannot prove that all the factors of stress the animal endured weakened his immune system so badly that he died. This was not an adult ball python. This was still a juvenile. Juvenile animals can and do die abruptly and without warning from stress related complications. It is terrible and it is never easy to deal with, but that is part of dealing with live animals. It is always a risk to have an animal shipped to you because an animal that could have sat in a collection perfectly outwardly healthy for ten years can suddenly present disease or complications brought on by the stress of shipping and a new enviornment.

Maybe if you learned a thing or two about how thoughtless greed affects a life then all of this could be avoided in the future.

My question to you Thomas and Brandon is with the pontential contamination of your collection, what are you going to do now?
 
Old 05-05-2012, 02:17 PM   #75
ShadowAceD
FYI Salmonella, depending on the strain, can present as early as 12 hours after exposure.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 02:42 PM   #76
Snakemanbonk
[/quote]

I never threaten you or said your name I was replying to jonathan Booker posting about making a YouTube video. The only reason why I didn't BOI you a bad guy yet because I couldn't upload the videos to YouTube from my phone. I told you I was going to go public with this and you did it for me, Thanks I appreciate you doing the work that I didn't have time for, I tried to work this out with you. Bottom line is quarantine or not you sent me a snake that wasn't 100% healthy like the thriving healthy babies I sent you.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 02:47 PM   #77
ShadowAceD
Brandon, a one year old Ball Python is not an adult. Just because it is sexually mature does not make it an adult. It was a juvenile.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 02:48 PM   #78
DaveyFig
Brandon, can you have your vet come on here and say that the animal wasn't healthy when it was sent?

What is it that you were trying to work out? You getting the snakes that you traded back is not working anything out.

Also, your partner, (that you said was only involved because he added a snake to the trade and knew a vet, and who directed you not to post) is taking responsibility for the death. You may want to talk to him about compensation.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 03:35 PM   #79
bigdogg
All I see in this thread is going off topic about who's really in the deal. And the fact there was no qt. Now qt would be important if Brandon and Tom were saying the snake infected another snake and it died as well. But they just want compesation for the mystic potion male that died. So that is on them that they bred it when it came in. It was a BREEDER animal. It was in BREEDING mode when they got it. So of course you are gonne BREED it. Not let it sit in a tub alone for 30-90 days and let that sperm go down the drain.

I see this as being a hard problem to solve as it isn't actually Xaviers fault the snake died and not toms or brandon's either. But dying in 10 days isn't normal. So xavier being the seller in this situation should compesate somehow. Even if it is sending money or just one of the 2 snakes he got back. Something is better then nothing. But that all depends on who wants to man up and eat it. Tom and Brandon have already came to that point as they didn't post on here.

I do think it is funny how brandon is a bad guy in this thread for wanting to get reimbursed for a dead snake. How the hell does that fly. I can understand Xavier having a bad guy post but also how do you post a bad guy thread on someone after you posted a good guy thread about them.

IMO Xavier isn't in the wrong but he should fix this somehow. I know if he doesn't Tom and Brandon will just eat it and deal with it and be out the 3-5k. But they didn't come on here trying to start a fight or calling xavier a bad guy now did they.....
 
Old 05-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #80
ReptileGeek181
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdogg View Post
All I see in this thread is going off topic about who's really in the deal. And the fact there was no qt. Now qt would be important if Brandon and Tom were saying the snake infected another snake and it died as well. But they just want compesation for the mystic potion male that died. So that is on them that they bred it when it came in. It was a BREEDER animal. It was in BREEDING mode when they got it. So of course you are gonne BREED it. Not let it sit in a tub alone for 30-90 days and let that sperm go down the drain.

I see this as being a hard problem to solve as it isn't actually Xaviers fault the snake died and not toms or brandon's either. But dying in 10 days isn't normal. So xavier being the seller in this situation should compesate somehow. Even if it is sending money or just one of the 2 snakes he got back. Something is better then nothing. But that all depends on who wants to man up and eat it. Tom and Brandon have already came to that point as they didn't post on here.

I do think it is funny how brandon is a bad guy in this thread for wanting to get reimbursed for a dead snake. How the hell does that fly. I can understand Xavier having a bad guy post but also how do you post a bad guy thread on someone after you posted a good guy thread about them.

IMO Xavier isn't in the wrong but he should fix this somehow. I know if he doesn't Tom and Brandon will just eat it and deal with it and be out the 3-5k. But they didn't come on here trying to start a fight or calling xavier a bad guy now did they.....
No they didn't.
 

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