Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!!

Originally posted by Brian Oakley
Not taking sides on this deal, but only responding to the "accountability" issue, I think someones word is a way of being accountable. Unfortunately people like to think otherwise and change stories.
So Scott, are you saying that you do not make ANY deals over the phone OR the web (email) without someone listening in or reading each and every post? I suppose there is nothing wrong with it, it does cover you a$$, but how sad it is to even THINK that you would have to do such a thing.
I can understand having all the facts and arrangements/agreements done via email so you have "record", but what you are saying is a lttle extreme. Like I said, if you are covering your tail, that is all that matters I suppose. I personally have never had to go to such lengths to make a deal on the selling end OR the buying end.

I prefer to do trade, purchase or sale via email that way I have a transcript of the transaction.

Why do I do this?

1) I am a salesman and I know all about misleading sales pitches and promises that never come to be

2) I used to run a herp store and probably 80% of the verbal deals that the owner of the store did went sour or were not as good as originally agreed upon. I never did any deals over the phone. I asked to see the herp first, we talked and then I wrote down on multiple carbon copy paper what was decided. When switching to this process, not one purchase, trade or sale ever differed from what was orginally decided upon.

Nobody ever cheated me and the people doing business with me knew I was not going to cheat them.

People that do large volumes of sales and trades cannot possible remember every verbal deal. Although I no longer run a store and my volume is much much smaller, it is still a great process.

To top it off.. I also document all incoming herp packages and herps within their arrival with my camera. A little extreme, maybe.. but.. there is never a doubt with anything I get and if there are problems with a shipment, it is easy to document the problem and get it fixed.

Its the salesman in me.. always gotta CYA!!

Hey Scott,

I also document all incoming herp packages and herps within their arrival with my camera.

It's a good thing I had mine! I have the last three days documented really good!

One point, I guess I was more talking about witness' to verbal communication. That is farfetched and in SOME cases impossible. I agree with everything you said although I do not think all is relevant.
1. Like I said, I too like to get all facts and details on email.....cannot dispute what each have typed.
2. I do not make special promises to different people. I promise all people I sell to the following: 1) health -current and past history 2) sex 3)proven or not 4) eating (kind of goes with health, but not always. Some can be season feeders if they were just bred or cooled). 5) what it looks like/pattern if applicable. This is why I will not sell an animal unless I have a pic of it. Same with purchasing one. I might have forgot some of the other "basics" but I do not promise the world. Don't say "will be a great breeder" as I cannot control mother nature.
3. I think the storefront sales are a bit different than internet sales. With a store (mind you I have never owned one, but I have purchased from one and a great friend of mine used to own one as well so I know "the ropes" of the bus.) a person comes in, sees, feels, handles, inspects, etc. In my opinion the only thing that can go wrong is a health problem. In that case I would give a guarantee, much like we do here on different websites we post our ads on.

I know you mentioned that you took pics and or saw each and every snake Tim had OR maybe it was just the ones you wanted. Let me play devils advicate here. Just because a snake looks outwardly healthy today does not mean it will be the same next week or whatever. I too would like to think that Tim takes the best of care when it comes to his animals. Again, we cannot control mother nature 100%.......anything can happen. Facts are facts, the snake in the transaction here is not healthy. The snake was physically and visually unhealthy from the time it came in. Something is wrong with that.
Bottom line, as far as "promises" go, salesman or not, one can only promise what they control/or attempt to control. IE: husbandry, feeding, watering, temps, things like that. If one is going to say "she will produce for you next year" or "You will get 30 babies outof her next year" that is a bad "salesman". How can one "promise" that?
I think you and I are on the same page Scott, but that still does not make the matter at hand any better.
Respectfully,
Brian Oakley

Forgot one last thing.............
Covering your a$$ does not always make someone honest. Just means you have someone that likes to play the same games as others.......referring to anyone that will vouch for something.
Just a general comment.
Brian Oakley

Hey Scott,

Did you by chance take any pictures of this snake when you were at tim's? And if you did could you post it here please.

Thanks,
Wes Pollock

This whole thing is very sad. Matt, I am so sorry to hear about what has happened. I do hope Tim does the right thing and works this out.

While I don't know either party, I do admire the fact that Matt has stuck to being mature in his postings about this situation and am disgusted with Tim's attitude towards Matt, with all the names, etc. What does that tell all of us reading this thread?

I feel so bad for this poor animal. Matt, is there nothing else you can do to save its' life? I do understand with whatever decision that needs to be made.

Take care!

Billy Fraser

Originally posted by wilomn
Hey Scott,

Did you by chance take any pictures of this snake when you were at tim's? And if you did could you post it here please.

Thanks,
Wes Pollock

I am not sure if I did.. most of the ETB pictures came out pretty badly... they were not being very photogenic that evening. If you look at the thread on corallus.com (and I think on here) about the Arboreals Gathering, you will see all the pictures that came out good enough to post!

Hey Scott,

I don't know what Tim did to this animal but the gathering was two month before I got her so that seems like sufficient time for an animal to start to decline. I hope he had good husbandry practices because whatever is wrong with her I wouldn't want to see the other animals get it.

Word of warning: If you are set on putting that animal down DO NOT do it yourself. Doing so, could hurt your chances in court. Have the vet do it.

Here's the question I have: Ohio to FL about 20 hours by car, about what 3 by air. $2500 purchase which you know comes with no guarantee. ISN'T IT WORTH THE MONEY AND TIME TO GO YOURSELF????? I will never understand why people do this. And I don't care if it was your friend, It's a $2500 purchase of an animal that comes with no guarantee.

Hey Brian,

One big mistake here!

It's a $2500 purchase of an animal that comes with no guarantee.

I was told the animal was perfectly healthy and had no problems at all before I bought and he even said if it had any problems he would have bitched at me because I am the one that sold it to him 9 months pryor.

The ONLY guarantee thing was if something happened during shipping then he wasn't responsible. That's it. Everything else was in my opinion to cover his butt. Even his e-mail that he says I agreed to the following was AFTER I had received the bad snake...not before. I could write up anything I want and e-mail it to him and it will hold zero ground in court.

Once again the only stipulation in the deal was he was not responsible if anything happened during shipping.