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View Poll Results: Would you use this hypothetical stuff?
Yes 15 26.79%
No 37 66.07%
Not sure or maybe, explain below. 4 7.14%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-07-2005, 09:20 PM   #21
Dennis1
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonCharm
After hearing about the possible issues with venomous snakes digesting food I'd have to say no myself. Hadn't really thought of that in the past and didn't know it was an issue.
From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have
Or maybe someone could breed a genetic flaw in them so they wouldn't be venomous if thats possible,Lets face it Man has been tampering with natures animals for Centuries and far be it for me to tell him he cant as that usually just makes him want to do it more...lol
Just about ALL pets and livestock have been altered and with that tampering there are always negative effects,So i guess its just up to us how bad the effects are and whats acceptable
I would like to see opinions on the negative effects on Morphs (specifically albinos),microchipping and even decenting ferrets
I just don't understand why the big deal,Just because someone eats meat, wears fur and leather and owns a venomoid doesn't make them bad
I am glad you've made this a flame free debate
 
Old 09-07-2005, 11:48 PM   #22
DragonCharm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have
Or maybe someone could breed a genetic flaw in them so they wouldn't be venomous if thats possible,Lets face it Man has been tampering with natures animals for Centuries and far be it for me to tell him he cant as that usually just makes him want to do it more...lol
Just about ALL pets and livestock have been altered and with that tampering there are always negative effects,So i guess its just up to us how bad the effects are and whats acceptable
I would like to see opinions on the negative effects on Morphs (specifically albinos),microchipping and even decenting ferrets
I just don't understand why the big deal,Just because someone eats meat, wears fur and leather and owns a venomoid doesn't make them bad
I am glad you've made this a flame free debate
From what I've heard it does cause them to have trouble digesting. Trouble digesting causes problems from the undigested food being there and the poor processing of nutrients. I've heard this shortens lifespan considerably.

Morphs like albinos (in captivity) won't cause any issues to the snake, no harm unless it was in the wild and easy for preds to find. Microchipping doesn't harm the animal at all. Descenting won't cause any problems that I know of on a captive animal though it might on a wild animal.
 
Old 09-08-2005, 12:21 AM   #23
Clay Davenport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have
The problem is it would take a significantly large study group and many years to investigate the potential drawbacks to health in relation to digestion.
The point being it's something we're likely to never know completely.
While it's obvious that venom aids in digestion, it's only speculated that it may not be harmful. Considering that for eons venomous snakes have evolved to utilize that venom in the acquiring and digestion of prey, I feel that it's quite likely that their bodies can indeed suffer if the predigestive properties of the venom are removed.
Whether it's harmful or not to remove that factor from the equation is irrelevant to me, the fact that it is beneficial is enough reason to keep them venomous.
It might not harm the overall health of a snake to fail to provide a hidebox for instance, but many of them obviously prefer to use one, and they benefit from the available security of a retreat within the cage. The fact that being without one doesn't harm them isn't enough reason to avoid using one just to have less cage furniture to clean.
It hasn't been scientifically proven that limiting food intake to keep boas or burms at smaller sizes is directly detrimental to health or longevity, but that doesn't justify the practice just because someone wants a burm, but doesn't want an 18 foot snake.

I have long been an advocate of keeping reptiles for what they are, not what you want them to be. I would like to keep gaboon vipers, but for me personally I can't justify keeping that species in my home when compared to the relative risk associated with working with them. For this reason I admire them in other people's collections, but I have consented that I will most likely never own one.
We're not talking about declawing a house cat, or descenting a ferret to make them more enjoyable to live with. We're talking about the internal workings of an animal and it's digestive processes, something essential to life. The fact that the possibility exists that removing venom could be harmful to this, whether or not it has been demonstrated, should be enough reason not to risk doing it just so someone can own a dangerous animal without the danger part.
 
Old 09-08-2005, 12:46 AM   #24
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have.
Venom serves 2 main purposes - 1) it subdues the prey in a manner which (usually) leaves the snake free from harm, and 2) it plays a huge role in digestion of prey, often beginning its work before the prey animal is eaten. This is especially true in viperid species with their highly cytotoxic venoms. What the venom does is literally destroy tissue by breaking down the cellular structures, making it very easy to process. Without it, the digestive process takes longer (which is not a huge issue in captivity because they aren't exposed to dangers as in the wild, but can lead to problems if the snake is handled/manipulated too soon after feeding). I mentioned earlier that i had, at one time, kept a few devenomized snakes. One of them, a gaboon viper, died at approximately 16 months of age because his digestive system failed. The rat just sat there and began to rot inside him. he looked pretty normal for about 3 days, then began to swell. The swelling increased daily, and by day 6 he began to stink of decomposing flesh (ever smelled a rat that has been shoved into the warm part of the cage and left overnite, or a 2 day post-feeding regurg? nothing in comparison to this). The stench permeated first the room, then the whole floor of the house. 2-3 days later, his color changed to a sickening greenish/grey and black fluid began to ooze out of his mouth when he moved. He died a day or two later. (my vet, who ordinarily doesn't do hots, was out of town...and I couldn't get another to even see it) It was truly an awful thing to behold. Aside from the digestion issue, a venomous snake without venom is unable to defend itself - this becomes an issue when some fool opts to toss in a live rat, or when (as instructed to do regularly in Venomoid Inc's certification) one is "testing" the effectiveness of the surgery.
Then, take into consideration the potential for harm in the case of a mishap. An acquaintance of mine was bitten by a "devenomized" black pakistan cobra. The onset of symptoms was fairly slow, taking place over several hours, but followed the expected course. he ended up being flown to a regional "snakebite center" and treated. I believe mechanical ventilation was necessary. He suffered longterm problems due to organ damage (liver, kidneys, and ?), not to mention motor function. These are 2 of the reasons I am opposed to 'voids. (the rest I pretty much posted earlier)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
I would like to see opinions on the negative effects on Morphs (specifically albinos),microchipping and even decenting ferrets
I just don't understand why the big deal,Just because someone eats meat, wears fur and leather and owns a venomoid doesn't make them bad
I am glad you've made this a flame free debate
As for morphs, the negative effects are largely those caused by inbreeding. In the wild, these animals would have poor survival rates because they would stand out in their surroundings, making them easy targets. Microchipping, when properly done, does not harm the animal. I believe the biggest risk is of infection, and that is easily avoided with proper technique. And the descenting of ferrets, at least that is a surgical procedure...so at least closer to the basic idea. but the animals are anesthetized, and the surgery is done under sterile conditions. One of the major objections of adversaries of 'voids is the conditions under which the "surgery" is performed. another thread on here shows an example of one setup - it features a board, some nails and a rubber strap - I'll try to dig that up when I finish this. At one time (from what I have heard), the incision was made from the outside, but people didn't like the scarring. Now, the incision is inside the mouth. Historically, the snakes were not anesthetized, but strapped in place with a metal brace holding their mouths open. I know of at least one person that used to inject silicone to prevent the caved in head look (it was probably just silicone caulk). The mortality rate is huge, AND if you do a bit of reading on the subject, you will find that it is not a "simple" procedure. Veterinarians, that are familiar with reptiles and the anatomy/physiology of hots, that have performed the surgery on dead subjects, have commented on how difficult it was to isolate the gland (so as not to remove/damage other things) and that they would not feel comfortable performing this operation on a living subject. Yes, I understand that everything is learned, and that with practice, it may become a skill...perhaps even considered "simple" - but how many deaths are caused in the process? and why is this acceptable?
Yes, I am very against 'voids - but you will rarely see me ranting on the subject. people aren't going to change their minds because of anything I say, and I realize that. But I still say - if you don't want a venomous snake, or don't have the skills to "handle" it...DON'T BUY IT. If you want something that won't hurt you if you screw up, buy a cornsnake...or if you want more of a challenge, a redtailed ratsnake or a whitelipped python.
 
Old 09-08-2005, 12:53 AM   #25
hhmoore
the pic I referred to above can be found here http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=70570 post # 12 (sorry, I'm at work, so I can't save the pics and post them)
 
Old 09-08-2005, 03:56 AM   #26
Dennis1
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
Venom serves 2 main purposes - 1) it subdues the prey in a manner which (usually) leaves the snake free from harm, and 2) it plays a huge role in digestion of prey, often beginning its work before the prey animal is eaten. This is especially true in viperid species with their highly cytotoxic venoms. What the venom does is literally destroy tissue by breaking down the cellular structures, making it very easy to process. Without it, the digestive process takes longer (which is not a huge issue in captivity because they aren't exposed to dangers as in the wild, but can lead to problems if the snake is handled/manipulated too soon after feeding).
Ive read the same thing,But it says Aids in digestion.
I havent read anything saying it is essential to digestion,Im not saying you are wrong im saying that it hasnt been proven to me on either thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
I mentioned earlier that i had, at one time, kept a few devenomized snakes. One of them, a gaboon viper, died at approximately 16 months of age because his digestive system failed. The rat just sat there and began to rot inside him. he looked pretty normal for about 3 days, then began to swell. The swelling increased daily, and by day 6 he began to stink of decomposing flesh (ever smelled a rat that has been shoved into the warm part of the cage and left overnite, or a 2 day post-feeding regurg? nothing in comparison to this). The stench permeated first the room, then the whole floor of the house. 2-3 days later, his color changed to a sickening greenish/grey and black fluid began to ooze out of his mouth when he moved. He died a day or two later. (my vet, who ordinarily doesn't do hots, was out of town...and I couldn't get another to even see it) It was truly an awful thing to behold.
That would be terrible,But couldnt it have been a number of things that caused this? Did you vet do a necropsy and tell you thats was why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
Aside from the digestion issue, a venomous snake without venom is unable to defend itself - this becomes an issue when some fool opts to toss in a live rat, or when (as instructed to do regularly in Venomoid Inc's certification) one is "testing" the effectiveness of the surgery.
Then, take into consideration the potential for harm in the case of a mishap. An acquaintance of mine was bitten by a "devenomized" black pakistan cobra. The onset of symptoms was fairly slow, taking place over several hours, but followed the expected course. he ended up being flown to a regional "snakebite center" and treated. I believe mechanical ventilation was necessary. He suffered longterm problems due to organ damage (liver, kidneys, and ?), not to mention motor function. These are 2 of the reasons I am opposed to 'voids. (the rest I pretty much posted earlier)
The best point on these threads,And is pretty much why i dont get one
Kinda defeats the purpose

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
As for morphs, the negative effects are largely those caused by inbreeding. In the wild, these animals would have poor survival rates because they would stand out in their surroundings, making them easy targets.
Inbreeding effects more than just color,When strengthening a desired trait its a pretty safe bet that you are strengthening an undesired one too and is not just color

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
Microchipping, when properly done, does not harm the animal. I believe the biggest risk is of infection, and that is easily avoided with proper technique.
Microchipping is money driven and unneccessary in my oppinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
And the descenting of ferrets, at least that is a surgical procedure...so at least closer to the basic idea. but the animals are anesthetized, and the surgery is done under sterile conditions.
The same can be said about venomoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
One of the major objections of adversaries of 'voids is the conditions under which the "surgery" is performed. another thread on here shows an example of one setup - it features a board, some nails and a rubber strap - I'll try to dig that up when I finish this. At one time (from what I have heard), the incision was made from the outside, but people didn't like the scarring. Now, the incision is inside the mouth. Historically, the snakes were not anesthetized, but strapped in place with a metal brace holding their mouths open. I know of at least one person that used to inject silicone to prevent the caved in head look (it was probably just silicone caulk). The mortality rate is huge, AND if you do a bit of reading on the subject, you will find that it is not a "simple" procedure. Veterinarians, that are familiar with reptiles and the anatomy/physiology of hots, that have performed the surgery on dead subjects, have commented on how difficult it was to isolate the gland (so as not to remove/damage other things) and that they would not feel comfortable performing this operation on a living subject. Yes, I understand that everything is learned, and that with practice, it may become a skill...perhaps even considered "simple" - but how many deaths are caused in the process? and why is this acceptable?
I have already seen the picture that someone downloaded of the internet and posted on that other thread as an attack which anyone with a lick of sense would not be a party to,And i dont beleive that to be the norm i wouldnt take any of my pets to bubba's garage to get a surgery...lol...That is what i like to call misinformation

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
Yes, I am very against 'voids - but you will rarely see me ranting on the subject. people aren't going to change their minds because of anything I say, and I realize that. But I still say - if you don't want a venomous snake, or don't have the skills to "handle" it...DON'T BUY IT. If you want something that won't hurt you if you screw up, buy a cornsnake...or if you want more of a challenge, a redtailed ratsnake or a whitelipped python.
I respect your oppinion as well as others on this forum and hope that i will get the same respect
I believe the best way to change peoples minds is to show them proof and i have yet to see it on either side
I want to thank all of you for being civil in this matter it makes for a better learning experience
 
Old 09-08-2005, 04:40 AM   #27
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
Inbreeding effects more than just color,When strengthening a desired trait its a pretty safe bet that you are strengthening an undesired one too and is not just color
I never said inbreeding only affected color. what I said was that the negative effects in morphs are (for the most part) the ones that are caused by inbreeding. breeding within that close a gene pool, in order to reproduce a color or pattern, results in problems...results in weaker animals with genetic defects. Perhaps I should have spelled it out more clearly in my previous post. my comment on the low survival rate in the wild was more of a side note, I apologize for the confusion it caused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
Microchipping is money driven and unneccessary in my oppinion
then don't have your animals chipped. simple enough. but look at it this way - maybe it isn't "money driven"...maybe it is following the money. with the prevalence of animal theft, and microchipping being proof positive that the animal belongs to you - if you've got a snake that is worth several thousand dollars or more, don't you think it would be worth it to be able to verify ownership.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
I have already seen the picture that someone downloaded of the internet and posted on that other thread as an attack which anyone with a lick of sense would not be a party to,And i dont beleive that to be the norm i wouldnt take any of my pets to bubba's garage to get a surgery...lol...That is what i like to call misinformation
regardless of what you believe, the veterinarians that perform this surgery are few and far between. The first person I knew that did this was not a vet, and he performed the procedure in his home. keep in mind this was about 15 years ago. I have since encountered one other person that I know performed the procedure in his basement, and a person that claimed he devenomized snakes himself. I don't know for certain if it was true, but it was a statement that he made TO ME when I asked who devenomized a snake he was offering for sale locally (knowing what I know about this person, and the number of 'voids he offered, I was willing to believe). As for taking your pet to bubba's garage for surgery, most people that have 'voids buy them that way. WHY? because they don't have the skills to care for an intact hot, even for as long as it would take to get it to a vet for surgery...not that most people could find a vet in their area to perform the surgery anyway. that point made, I commend them for recognizing this; as the last thing this hobby needs is even more negative press, and stupid people being bitten by snakes they shouldn't have...that is how all the legislation starts.
 
Old 09-08-2005, 04:55 AM   #28
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
not that most people could find a vet in their area to perform the surgery anyway.
This is another interesting factor. Just for giggles, start calling around to vets - try to find one that will devenomize a banded egyptian cobra for you. Then, if you can find one ask how much it would cost.
 
Old 09-08-2005, 05:37 AM   #29
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
Ive read the same thing,But it says Aids in digestion.
I havent read anything saying it is essential to digestion,Im not saying you are wrong im saying that it hasnt been proven to me on either thread
One last thing, please note that I said they can digest prey without venom - but it takes longer. again, with the sheltered lives they lead in captivity, the extension of the digestive process is not a huge issue, as long as the keepers are aware of it and minimize handling and other stressors during this period. from what I recall, length of the total digestive cycle increased by 2-10 days (depending on the species) just from feeding prekilled vs live prey. this was due to the lack of circulation of the venom...the fact that it could only affect tissue where it was injected. I believe that the total absence of venom was shown to extend the process just a bit longer. There have also been some studies that seem to reflect less of an impact on digestive cycles with higher temperatures SO, if one was to elevate temps to the high end of normal range and maintain them there for a week or so after feeding, it may well negate the absence of venom. And personally, I have always recommended the feeding of smaller prey items to 'voids. (if ya gotta keep 'em, at least do it right)
 
Old 09-08-2005, 05:57 AM   #30
hhmoore
one more last thing

Originally Posted by hhmoore
Quote:
I mentioned earlier that i had, at one time, kept a few devenomized snakes. One of them, a gaboon viper, died at approximately 16 months of age because his digestive system failed. The rat just sat there and began to rot inside him. he looked pretty normal for about 3 days, then began to swell. The swelling increased daily, and by day 6 he began to stink of decomposing flesh (ever smelled a rat that has been shoved into the warm part of the cage and left overnite, or a 2 day post-feeding regurg? nothing in comparison to this). The stench permeated first the room, then the whole floor of the house. 2-3 days later, his color changed to a sickening greenish/grey and black fluid began to ooze out of his mouth when he moved. He died a day or two later. (my vet, who ordinarily doesn't do hots, was out of town...and I couldn't get another to even see it) It was truly an awful thing to behold.
Response by dennis
Quote:
That would be terrible,But couldnt it have been a number of things that caused this? Did you vet do a necropsy and tell you thats was why?
It wasn't necessary, the putrefaction of prey due to slowed digestion is, or was at the time, known to be a problem with 'voids. I had the gaboon at low-mid normal temps when the swelling began (right where he had been since the beginning of his time with me, due to several regurges at slightly higher temps) , and increased it to mid-high normal when it was obvious what was happening (only a few hours after the swelling was noted). I was honestly hesitant to raise the temps at all, because my initial fear was that the rat would rot before he could digest it. My thoughts then turned to "oh crap, what if he tries to puke". I would happily have dealt with the consequences if it would have saved him...but as the process continued, it was obvious that if he regurged that thing, he would likely die in the process.
 

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