morphs in color phase corns

Originally Posted by Billybobob

Have you ever seen an anery miami, an anery okeetee, lavender okeetee, miami snow, okeetee snow, miami ghost, okeetee ghost, hypo lave ghost. Yes there are breeders working on projects that do what i am talking about but there realy is not that many breaders trying to breed all of the morphs into all of the color phases and that is what i am talking about

This was your 5th post, and though I responded to it once already, I did notice that last line. Being the bright individual that you seem to be . . . do you realize mathematically what it would take to breed ALL the morphs into ALL the color phases and then (and here I don't know what you want to do since your explanations are not clear) breed everything back together again? Think it through. . .

Maybe we need to understand what you are talking about. What exactly do you mean by morph, and what exactly do you mean by color phases?

D80

Originally Posted by Billybobob

yes i know that i am talking about line breeding yes i know that there are people all ready doing things like this but there are very few people actualy trying to breed every singal morph to all of the selectively bred phases and that is what i ame talking about. So what i ame talking about is somthing new it is not the same old thing that some breeders are doing.
This statement is clear as mud. First you admit that you are talking about line breeding, but then indicate that it's something brand new . . . which is it? Secondly, do you understand exactly what selectively bred means? It means you are breeding for a specific desirable (or undesirable I suppose) trait. How would throwing lavender into miamis create 'new' miami's?

As to anery miamis i think that they would look nice just because you cant see the point in breeding them dose not mean it is a bad idea. You are not the athourity on what looks good.
Technically speaking there could be no such thing as an anery miami. A miami is a normal corn with silver background and ideally bright red saddles. An anery, by definition, does not have RED!!! Hence, no miami, just an anery. Now if you are talking about banded (which IIRC came from miami bloodlines), then you could LINE BREED SELECTIVELY to creat a banded Anery. Same goes with Lavender Okeetee, which I have responded to several times already.

And i would like to add that most people now are not realy selectively breeding there snakes any more unles they bred a morph to a normal then they will cross the babys back to the paret to get more of the morph and that is not line breeding that is just a way to make money faster. People are crosing normals to miami phase and calling the resulting babies miami when they are realy just high grey normals. That's a whole different situation and example that has no bearing on this discussion. They call them miamis just to make acouple extra bucks. this is how alot of people are breeding there corns now and my idea is nothing like that. i know that not all breeders are doing this but there are alot out there that are.

In conclusion read the post before you critisize. [b]Technically speaking, that last paragraph criticized a LOT of breeders that are working on projects, or trying to feed their families, or just trying to have fun with genetics. We shouldn't be pointing fingers. You asked for input, and I feel that I was fairly constructive in my criticism.

Now, I have given you the due diligence in re-reading your scattered thoughts, and responded appropriately in those cases that I felt necessary. Would you please now:
1. Answer the specific questions, clearly, that blckkat and I have both presented to you.
2. Stop telling us to go back and reread what you already posted cause I can guarantee I didn't follow them the first time nor the second, and can guarantee that both blckkat and I read them thoroughly the first time,
and 3. Do your best to CLEARLY explain just what it is that you are asking for input on.


D80

Oh, yeah, and I don't know why I didn't post this tidbit of information sooner.

I believe that the best candy canes have originated from the miami lines of normals to begin with, so your idea of getting miami mixed in there somewhere (which I'm still not following with the lavender and bloodred and okeetee references) is already being done quite often.

D80

Technically speaking there could be no such thing as an anery miami. A miami is a normal corn with silver background and ideally bright red saddles. An anery, by definition, does not have RED!!! Hence, no miami, just an anery. Now if you are talking abou

So what is a candy cane? most considere it an amel miami phase. But acorrding to you, you cant have that because an amel wont have the grey. But regardless of what you think that is what a candy cane is an amel miami that has been selectively bred to clean up the ground color. Are you a locality purist. because you said in one of your post :

What exactly does this mean? Talking to the purists, the babies would no longer be Okeetee's as the Lav was not Okeetee Stock. Speaking to the 'Phase' group, some of your hatchlings would be Okeetee looking het lavender and some wouldn't.

I have been talking about miami phases, and okeetee phases, not the locality of the two. just had to respond to 2 of your flaws in logic. Will post more later. and will try to explain the idea in a way you can undersand

First off, I think you need to get all of your ducks in a row by stating some definitions. WHAT is an Okeetee? WHAT is a Miami Phase? WHAT is a normal?

Okeetees and Miami Phase are basically normals that are representative of specific looks of animals that came from a specific region. That's why they bear a name representative of the region they originated from.

So if you breed a Miami Phase to an Okeetee, what do you get? Well I guess you could look at a map and plot a point midway between Miami Florida and Okeetee Hunt Club in South Carolina and put that name to them. You might not be too far off base in what the resulting animals turn out looking like anyway.

If there are certain traits you are looking to incorporate from one line to another, you need to be specific about that. What would anyone want to bring the bright orange colors of the Okeetee and put them into the Miami Phase? That will happen, you know, but more of a blending effect then anything else. I think you will get a mediocre looking animal midway between those two extremes.

As for breeding Okeetees and Miami Phase into genetic types, well that happens every season, and has been do for quite a while. Results are not always predictable and certainly not all of them are even pleasing to the eye. So people will do such projects and abandon many of them as the results turn out to be less then what was hoped for.

I expect to product Sunkissed/Charcoal Okeetee phase corns this year. I have no idea what they will look like, but I doubt they will be earth shaking. Of course, I need to keep those babies for a few years to see what they turn out like as adults, which brings up another point about projects such as these. They are expensive do to in turns of time, effort, and resources. No one can possibly do every project that is possible to come up with these days. You have to pick and choose those which you deem to be most interesting to you and/or most worthy in potential for what you will need to put into it. And like it or not, you WILL waste your time sometimes when you finally get your results and stand there staring at what 8 years or more of effort has born out.

Suppose you decide you want to produce Butter Opal Motleys. With what is currently available at the very best you will turn up with Amelanistics het for Caramel, Lavender, and Motley or Motleys het for Amelanism, Caramel and Lavender. When you grow those up, your odds are only 1 in 64 of getting ONE of your target animals. If you want Okeetee Phase or Miami Phase thrown into the mix as well, you have put your goal posts even further down the field. So you better have held on to ALL of the babies from that clutch for seed stock for this project. Suppose you had 16 babies? Well that is 16 more adults you have had to raise up just for this one project. Suppose you have 10 ongoing projects of similar complexity? Watch those numbers skyrocket in the animals you have to take care of waiting and hoping to reach the results you are hoping for.

Most people burn out before too long and wind up selling off everything. All of the rest that have held the course are a little bit insane. Burned out but not willing or capable to admit it.

So that's why you don't see some projects that you have mentioned. Some have been tried already and discarded. Others considered, but not projected to be worth while and rejected. The only way you are going to be able to come up with a new idea for a project is by having something new to work with that no one else has and has not put into a project, sorry to say. This is not rocket science, so the ideas for mixing and matching are not that hard to come up with.

Originally Posted by Billybobob

So what is a candy cane? most considere it an amel miami phase. But acorrding to you, you cant have that because an amel wont have the grey. But regardless of what you think that is what a candy cane is an amel miami that has been selectively bred to clean up the ground color. Are you a locality purist. because you said in one of your post : I have been talking about miami phases, and okeetee phases, not the locality of the two. just had to respond to 2 of your flaws in logic. Will post more later. and will try to explain the idea in a way you can undersand

Rich, thanks for your input on this. I especially like the reminder of what breeding projects entail with keeping back offspring. I'm getting my first real taste of that this summer . . . hopefully (I'm not going to count my morphs before they hatch!)

Billy,
As nicely as I possibly can I am going to re-ask you to answer blckkats and my specific questions. You have repsonded to my several posts with knitpicky quotes that point out something I may have said wrong, BUT I will say that you haven't read MY posts very clearly.

As for flaws in my logic, you need to listen to yourself. First on candycanes, I may be naive or misunderstanding the literature, but candycane does NOT mean amel miami. Candy cane means selectively bred amel with increased amounts of white in the background accompanied with either bright red or bright orange saddles. NOW if you had read my posts you would have seen where I stated candy canes originally began with amels coming from the miami lines. As has been stated, especially by Rich, what does that make an amel from miami lines? Did the amel come from outside the miami lines, or within? That's one answer I personally don't know the answer to, BUT a miami is still 'just a normal' anyway.

As for the calling me purist . . . I'm glad you quoted my whole comment because I didn't choose sides, I indicated the response you would get form either side on that debate! READ! But, luckily you have clarified one of your positions on Phases which would mean I could present a cornsnake to you with high orange/red and thick black borders and call it an Okeetee phase (even though there is no 'Hunt Club' lineage) and we'd understand what we're talking about. That also supports my repsonses to having an okeetee lavender, okeetee anery, okeetee charcoal. You could selectively breed for large thick borders on any of those color morphs and have an okeetee phase 'insert morph here'.

It's been fun thinking through your ideas, but quite frankly they have been unclear, and you have been unwilling to answer questions presented to you. I look forward to seeing your intelligent responses and clarifications, but don't intend to get into too much more of a debate with you until you are able to explain yourself more clearly. I think everything's been said about it anyway, at least the way you have presented it.

In short, I believe your suggestion isn't anything new and that breeders are already doing it.
D80

Now my question is...How would you get a Okeetee Miami? Are we speaking of a Miami phase with bold black boards like an Okeetee phase?

This is blkkat"s only question. I did not answer it because i never said anything about crossing okeetees to miamis. If anothere was asked that i have not answered that is about my post i did not see it.

As for my last post, yes i nit picked at your responce but i also mentioned that i would post more about my idea later in a way you would under stand. after re-reading all of the post i realize that i was unclear in some of the things i was saying, I am not the best of writers. I felt that most people knew the basic deffenition phase. So what i thought was a prety clear post was actualy kind of hard to understand. But rich got the basic idea without me having to explaoin any further.

Before i start to explain my post hear are a few things to take in:

Okeete/Miami PHASE= not the locality. The normals bred to look like them.
Bloodred= diffused paterned corn with the dark red color like the original lines or close.
Morph/Cultivar= any genetic trait that can be represented in the snake.

Bare in mind that i know that this will take a long time to get good results and will be very costly i know all that it would take to start a project like this.

My idea is to make all of the morphs avalible in all of the phases. So when outcrossed the resulting babys would be okeetee or miami or blood. Incase this is not clear here is an exampel:

Okeetee lav(by this i mean a lav that if it were not lav its normal look would be okeetee) X okeetee = Okeetee phase het lav

So i would have 3 different lines for every morph; Okeetee line, Miami line, and blood line. This way if people want to know what the snake would look like with out its mutant color i could tell them that it would look like a Okeetee, a Miami, or a Bloodred. My queston mainly was prety much just trying to see if people would like to see this type of breeding program and to see if there would be any demand for it.

As to your Questions you have asked alot, more than i want to cut and past to this post so i will go from memorie. Most of your questions had to do with my first couple of exampels. The Questions have been answered in allmost all of my post and in this one so reread this with your Questons in mind so you can find the answers. The next of your Questions was in a couple of parts:

too bad, because mother nature, genetically, does view miamis and okeetess as normals

I did say that i know that they are geneticaly normal but I dont see them as just regular old normals. i bet that most of the cornsnake comunity also feels this way.

if it's not going to strengthen bloodlines or help produce new morphs, what exactly is the point??!!

This question came from part of a respons to lotsofdragons i belived he or she ment reating a new mutant genetic trait when they said morph.

How would adding in lavender create better founding stock for the projects/selectively bred morphs you have listed?? Bloodred would not help selective breeding for candy canes, where would the orange saddles go for one?

I would not use a blood i would use an amel or butter from the miami line.

Ummmm, just a few lines back you stated you specifically stated it WASN'T about creating new morphs . . . now I'm really confused!

No it is not about creating new morphs but it dose go to helping to create new selectively bred morphs. Which is how i said it in the first place.
This is one of the resonse why i said you should reread my post.

Now that all of your questoines have been answered. I have a few ?'s for you. what would you call an "amel miami" or for that mater a miami that came from a candycaneXmiami breading, would it still be a miami in your view. Carol over on cornsnake.com ocasonaly has amel miamis what do you say to her.

First on candycanes, I may be naive or misunderstanding the literature, but candycane does NOT mean amel miami. Candy cane means selectively bred amel with increased amounts of white in the backgroud.

No it doesn't but candycanes come from miami lines people did not just take all of there high white amels and start producing candycanes that would have taken 100's of years to do but by using miamis it got rid of alot of the background color alot faster than if you tryed to do it without miami blood.

You could selectively breed for large thick borders on any of those color morphs and have an okeetee phase 'insert morph here'.

It is not just the sadel borders that make it an okeetee it is also the color. most reverse okeetee when crossed out to regular okeetee produce actual okeetee phases. for me to add the okeetee name to the morph it would depend on if the babies from an outrossed morph actualy looked like a okeetee.

So i have now ansered your questions and i hope you get my idea now. Any questions now i would love to clarify some more if nessisary