Status check on health of this site.

I just got the following email, and it made me sit back and try to take stock of things here.....

I know you had to start charging but since you have there is really nothing to look at on fauna. It just a handful of the same people. There prices are never that great either.
I really used to like browsing the adds. I found lots of great buys in the past even in my own state now really nothing. I hope things get back to the old way

This is not the first nor only email I have gotten of this nature.

I've checked the statistics logs of the site and logins of registered members since January 1, 2007 till present (I began the paid requirement on posting classifieds on March 7, 2007) and it shows a steady decline in members logging in. From an average of around 1100 per day to around 850 per day now. Taking into account NEW registrations, the picture is likely even worse than the stats show.

New threads posted, which are a pretty good indication of actual ads posted, has dropped from a high in January of 1884 threads to 932 in April, to a peak in August of 1215 and hitting 941 so far this month of October.

Even more damning is when I look at total posts per month. January, 2007 showed 13,576 posts made that month, which has steadily declined to a mere 6,516 for this month of October. February showed a slight decline of 11,097 posts, but plummeted sharply in March to only 8,741 posts for that month. And posts have steadily declined since then to the current level.

Obviously things do not bode well for the future of this site.

Yeah, I know everyone will have their own opinions about this, but my main concern is whether or not the charging for posting classified ads on this site is being the main choking point. I was reluctant from the start to do this, but many people offered this as a suggestion and I felt it was just being hard headed on my part to fight it. No, I am not trying to make a claim as to being right or wrong about this, just simply posting the facts and trying to see what the cards laying on the table are telling me.

Quite simply put, is participation in the classified sections here just a matter of being free, or being dead?

The paid requirement has been running for nearly 8 months now. The question is, IS it wise to continue?

So yes, I am soliciting opinions on this. The picture I see does not look good at all, but maybe there are broader issues as well.

Speaking from my own position.....new to keeping and breeding snakes.

I feel the payment requirement for posting in the classifieds might put a hamper on the hobbyist breeders. Those people who have a single pair or two of reptiles that they have bred and are not looking to turn it into a business, might feel that their hobby has to become a business in order to cover the subscription fee. Now, I know it's not all that expensive, but if you only produce a few babies a year, some might not be up to rationalizing the fee to sell on Fauna.

I have tossed this idea around quite a bit myself. Do I pay to sell here, knowing the snakes will go to someone that has a true interest in reptiles...or try my hand with local pet stores, where the buyer is likely to be an impulse buyer or ignorant to the requirement for properly caring for a reptile. (I am aware that these stereotypes do not hold true for all people in either arena.)

Also, with the current setup, people have to pay in order to advertise for wanted animals. I feel this also impedes the growth of individuals and the overall herp culture and hobby. If I'm looking for one specific animal to complete or compliment my collection, why do I need to pay to inquire about any available animals?

I'm not sure how others feel, so I open the floor to further discussion.

Yeah, I know everyone will have their own opinions about this, but my main concern is whether or not the charging for posting classified ads on this site is being the main choking point.

On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.

I think it is important to look at the pluses and minuses. Is a lower post count actually a bad thing when it comes to the quality of the advertisers and the overall heath of the site along with the bottom-line profitability here?

I think it is important to note that some (not I) have only contributed here for the ability to post in the classifieds. I guess one of the questions you could ask is if that amount of contributors just to post classifieds out-ways less post counts? Would you have less paid contributors if you dropped the fee or would it spark a renewed interest? If you dropped the fee would those seeking free classifieds actually benefit the site in contributions down the road?

It would be interesting to know if the members at the contributing membership level in January is less or more now? How many of them would actually renew if the classifieds were free?

And also, you would have to way some of the other problems we faced with the higher post counts.

The alternative classifieds section (photopost) has been restricted to paid membership for a while now. For some reason, that section was being heavily targeted by spammers. That paid membership restriction pretty much ended that problem there.

This is now expanding that requirement to include the forum based classifieds as well.

I am new and my opinion means squat, but here it is. When I first became enamored of the reptile hobby I joined both KS and Fauna, because I saw the need to have some kind of sites that would be able to steer me in the right direction. As both sites became a arena for name-calling and bashing, I stopped visiting both; they were too "hardcore" for me, so I actually cut my eyeteeth on Reptileforums.com.

I got around the need for a regulation by simply dealing with Breeders that I already knew and I did not deviate from this strategy. However, as time went on, I saw (as many did) the need to have some kind of regulations some kind of "watchdog" in place as more scammers sprung up, so I came back to Fauna because between the two KS and Fauna...honestly for me Fauna was more "user friendly." The set up was easier to follow.

However, as I have become more familar with the site itself and the postings...I fear that the warnings that I had been given in the beginning have some substance to them. While we breeders do pack a lot of clout and can regulate this trade in a way...the way people get trashed by every person that may have one snake to their name that is already dead leaves a lot to be desired. The breeders and those that have had dealings with those that are scammers should be the only ones posting about their experiences. What I am seeing is every child and teenager has the right to come on here and disrespect everyone. This alone is enough to make people leave.

Trying to be politically correct here. But what I posted is actually what I heard before I came back..but I came back anyway because we do need a regulator/advisor...ahhh, let me shut up.

What I am trying to say is, it's not the fees (imo) many herpers are willing to pay for a QUALITY product. There is more than one issue at work in this situation.

Originally Posted by ms_terese

On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.

Preferred by whom? The older herpers? Some of the newer herpers/people seem to have as difficult a time as I do trying to navigate those ads.

Aren't classifieds seasonal too?

I think that a lot has been done this year, some attitudes adjusted, some new views brought into focus. I don't think there's been enough time to get a good handle on whether or not it's good or bad.

I haven't posted a for sale ad anyplace for this years babies. I should have, could have, but simply haven't. It was a slow year and I just got lazy. Maybe others are feeeling the same.

I don't think Fauna will ever be on the same level as KS as far as "the" place to go to sell, but I think the rest of the site is still growing up. I suspect that the "clout" of Fauna will grow in the next few years.

Almost everyone bitches and moans about how people behave here, the name calling and childish behaviour, but those very same people come here when they want to know about someone or when they have a problem.

I suspect that as the season winds into winter and fewer snakes are available for sales that posts may well lesson in number. I suspect that next year when snakes start breeding and when babies are available that posts will go up.

Maybe you should consider getting a banner for Fauna and ask that members set it up at different shows they attend to get people to sign up. Offer an upgrade on membership or something as an incentive and just have us send the banner to whomever is using it next. Or get several made and send them out. Relatively cheap but effective advertisement.

It's still a hell of a site. It's still got more personality and more personalities than anyplace else on the web.

And it's still growing up. It's better than it was but not as good as it will be.

Originally Posted by ms_terese

On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.

Since the statistics code on this site does not give me the ability to be able to determine such a comparison, then I have nothing to go on concerning facts to agree nor disagree with your statement. Posting in anywhere other than the BOI has always been weak on this site and it is my opinion that the discussion forums are not the reason people come here. That is a fight that I have given up on. As for posting on the BOI, it is my impression that this has increased, if anything. So in effect, the only forums on this site that appear to be any attraction at all to people would have to be those related to business aspects of the industry. It is my opinion that I could completely remove all general topic discussion forums from this site and it would not make much difference at all in ACTIVE participation by those members visiting here.

Just for fun, I ran the stats program going back to the end of 2004 (which is as far as I can get stats, since an upgrade at that time wiped out earlier logs) just to see if any trends can be determined. Here's a graph of POSTS made monthly in that timeframe:



And as for THREADS started in that time period, here's the graph of that data:



So what are they telling me? Obviously humps and valleys in traffic. But what were the triggers for the changes? I'm sure the info is here, for anyone willing to dig in and find out...... Quite likely the slumps are triggered by implementing a fee for something or another. But perhaps there are other factors involved as well.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

I am new and my opinion means squat, but here it is. When I first became enamored of the reptile hobby I joined both KS and Fauna, because I saw the need to have some kind of sites that would be able to steer me in the right direction. As both sites became a arena for name-calling and bashing, I stopped visiting both; they were too "hardcore" for me, so I actually cut my eyeteeth on Reptileforums.com.

I got around the need for a regulation by simply dealing with Breeders that I already knew and I did not deviate from this strategy. However, as time went on, I saw (as many did) the need to have some kind of regulations some kind of "watchdog" in place as more scammers sprung up, so I came back to Fauna because between the two KS and Fauna...honestly for me Fauna was more "user friendly." The set up was easier to follow.

However, as I have become more familar with the site itself and the postings...I fear that the warnings that I had been given in the beginning have some substance to them. While we breeders do pack a lot of clout and can regulate this trade in a way...the way people get trashed by every person that may have one snake to their name that is already dead leaves a lot to be desired. The breeders and those that have had dealings with those that are scammers should be the only ones posting about their experiences. What I am seeing is every child and teenager has the right to come on here and disrespect everyone. This alone is enough to make people leave.

Trying to be politically correct here. But what I posted is actually what I heard before I came back..but I came back anyway because we do need a regulator/advisor...ahhh, let me shut up.

What I am trying to say is, it's not the fees (imo) many herpers are willing to pay for a QUALITY product. There is more than one issue at work in this situation.

Yes, that is a tune I have heard before. However when trying to come up with a universal definition of "quality" everyone has their own opinion, seldom shared by more than a few others. And the real stumbling block is that most people would want such a structure forced on all participants to be done by only THEIR definition.

If this site's eventual evolution is to be ONLY the BOI, then perhaps a closer look at what is needed in that direction would be warranted. But quite honestly, I doubt anything new could be brought to the table that either has not been tried already and failed, or discarded as being likely a fruitless effort.
The BOI as you see it now IS the results of evolution after having survived the changes I have tried in order to make it *better*. Barring a revelation, I don't see me making a similar mistake again any time soon.