Status check and poll on recent crack down

Originally Posted by WebSlave

People were afraid to post in the past for being slammed by a few people who relished in doing that sort of thing. That is over with.

I was beginning to tire of posting and getting slammed. Honestly, the post where someone was intentionally nasty over an ordinary conversation involving a time zone change was the last straw.

I think that it would be good for those concerned with collateral damage to perhaps step back and take a look at the big picture and recognize that there is some collateral benefit going on here as well that may not be apparent at first glance.

I for one am finally beginning to post more of my ordinary and I hope enjoyable posts in the Welcome Room and other forums, confident that I will not be slashed for ordinary conversation as I was for a while.
I think there may be more like me, those who love reptiles, appreciated the site and the BOI, yet simply did not enjoy some of the shark mentality and nastiness.
Those nasty posts will be here forever, and I am sure that when those who posted that sort of thing finally mature and become courteous and responsible, they will blush with shame to see some of the gratuitous hurt and garbage they so freely bestowed.

There are costs and benefits to every rule, every law. But considering the whole picture, and the fact that for a few bucks you can go to hell and be as nasty as possible on this very site, I think the changes are positive and the risks of inadvertent warning points relatively small.

Surely those who want to be part of the community will come together and recognize that no matter where you go in life there are rules of behavior and the benefits here way outweigh the slight cost of minding what one says.

Sorry Jim, but I know for a fact that as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow morning someone would complain about what I do, no matter what it is. So I will simply do what I think is best, with some input when I feel necessary, and regardless of what some minority group may think otherwise about it. If this direction alienates some people, so be it, because no matter what I would do, SOMEONE would most certainly feel alienated by it.

"Roughly half the participants" is hardly a mandate. Especially considering the minor percentage of all people participating on this site, it is hardly even an indication of much concern whatsoever about what I have asked about. Right now only 44 people have even voted on the poll. Two of them would rather go back to the wild west days here, so it does make me wonder about what it is they want from this site. How many daily visitors does this site have? How many total registered members? What percentage of them even give a darn either way?

The purpose of the poll was to gather data about something I was concerned about, which it is doing. If I had seen overwhelming evidence of my being on the wrong road, then I would consider that I needed to make a change. The simple fact of the matter is that I thought perhaps that was the case, which is why I even brought this up in the first place. Only 44 people even consider it worth discussing with me, and by no means is there any overwhelming wave of dissatisfaction over my actions.

I would have been shocked beyond belief to see a unanimous agreement for any of the options, so the poll is pretty much par for the course here. But just because a couple of people can be very vociferous about their position does not elevate it to a more influential status, overrinding my own feelings, or that of the other less vociferous participants. It just tells me you are passionate about your own personal belief, but it weighs in no more then someone who simply votes without comment. Your points have been read, I have considered them, I understand them, but I just do not agree with your assessment. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat what you are saying. Repetition is not strengthening it nor giving it any more support. It has the same effect as if I had simply read your previous post again.

A lot of people will make this kind of mistake in a discussion of this nature, where opinions, and not facts, are the basis of the sides being taken. They think because someone does not agree with them, that they simply must not understand their argument. Some are just unwilling to admit that their opinion is not universally accepted and think if they say the same thing again, but just a different way, maybe it will sink in.

......A lot of people will make this kind of mistake in a discussion of this nature, where opinions, and not facts, are the basis of the sides being taken. They think because someone does not agree with them, that they simply must not understand their argument. Some are just unwilling to admit that their opinion is not universally accepted and think if they say the same thing again, but just a different way, maybe it will sink in.

Certainly we have both encountered what you refer to in the above quote. We have also both encountered situatons where opinions are first mischaracterized so as to then better appear to rebut them, avoiding or deflecting the original issues. Your poll is about 50-50. That it does not cross the necessary threshold for you is certainly your prerogative, but there is a balance of opinions represented, and does not reflect a consensus pro or con about tweaking. I know that I am not alone in the belief that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that the current method, in our opinions, could be improved upon.

While only 40 odd folks have participated in the poll, I don't draw the conclusion that only those folks consider it worthy of discussion. I myself was a stranger to these backwaters of the site until another brought them to my attention, and I have no doubt that the majority of members do not check here often. Sure, a couple have voted for the Wild West, but that would be less than 5%. 95% were and are for continued enforcement of the rules in a fashion far stricter from the older Wild West days, and that is very encouraging.

Lucille, all of your points are good, but I do not believe that a single dissenter who posted here has lobbied for rules without a bite, for we all recognize they aren't rules at that point. I believe that we have all spoken for what we believe would be continued improvement. Not a person has made a post that wanted to see the conduct of the site digress. About 50% of the folks feel that the current system can be improved upon, and its not to return to the old way of doing things. And while not all can ever be pleased, I do not think it an outlandish assumption that some tweaking of the system would maintain current standards and garner an even higher approval rating in a future poll. And yes, less collateral damage.

Possible that there may be more than one hard head here, eh?

Originally Posted by lucille

I for one am finally beginning to post more of my ordinary and I hope enjoyable posts in the Welcome Room and other forums, confident that I will not be slashed for ordinary conversation as I was for a while.

I for one am afraid to post without checking, reading, double checking and reading again to insure there is nothing in my post that may be perceived to be "derogatory" "antagonistic" "profane" "a name" "sticks and stones"..........I was Banned for an obviously derogatory name (my bad~ I'm just such a troube maker!) ~ but it sure looks like a lot of the rules are arbitrarily administered depending on the mood of the day.

I know. Thats just the way it is. It was designed to ensure the Trouble makers like me walk on egg shells here. Live with it or leave......or leave......or leave.......I've been told, thanks.......plenty of times.

Think I'll go ahead and vote on this poll now.
Thanks

I do appreciate being able to read various threads without having to scroll through pages and pages of flame wars as in the "old days". That was getting really old! I think Rich has done a lot to get rid of those who delight in that sort of thing. I think it is fine to let them live in Hell - I haven't been there since the subscription started, and so don't really know or care what goes on there now.

But I also have to agree that toning it down now, possibly using a couple of the suggestions made (3 "slaps on the wrist", then the fine, or maybe a couple day suspension the first few times, etc) would accomplish the same goals as the methods now in place, and without alienating those who rarely offend. As mentioned, those who need more than a slap on the wrist will get more soon enough, as they continue their evil ways! But those who had a momentary lapse will make sure they don't transgress again anytime soon!

I consider myself to be a level headed and thoughtful person who would not normally post anything that would reflect badly on myself - I am not sure why ANYONE wants to do that! But I do feel that if I somehow managed to mess up and inadvertently get a fine, I would be both embarrassed and a bit insulted, if it was the first time in all of these years I made a very minor mistake, and yet was treated the same as an habitual offender. It would make me wonder about all of the "good time" put in versus the one mistake, pretty much as what Cheryl discussed in her thread.

Yes, I know you say some of us are too "thin skinned" and that may be true - I would be among those. Although it is not a completely gender based thing, I have noticed over the years that many men seem to be thicker skinned about these things than many women. No, not all men, and not all women, of course!! Just a general observation.

Anyway, these are just some random thoughts and opinions on the subject. I am basically happy - as long as I don't run afoul of the rules, lol! I don't plan to run afoul, but if I do, I will probably feel about the same as Cheryl did.

I have to say it is nice to have these debates on a mature level without name calling. It is just that I think it is possible to keep that benefit without making (relatively) "innocent" people feel embarrassed or unwelcome.

Believe me, I do see what you are saying, but please bear with me on this. I felt, and still do, that tough measures are necessary. Pulling back this early would likely give the wrong signal and maybe undo everything accomplished up to this point. The last thing I want to see is some of the trouble makers kick up again, thinking, "Gee, I'm glad that phase is over with! Now I can be myself again and bash a few people here..."

Yes, eventually things will back off a bit, but not because I am doing it intentionally, but because my time will be sucked up during the breeding season with my own animals, and I just won't have as much time to put into this. And with this simple fact in mind, I guess I need to remind everyone that most of the actions taken enforcing the rules lately have been because other members REPORTED those posts as being possible violations. Which means that other people felt the posts WARRANTED the penalties they could possibly incur. So it's not that myself and the moderators are ogres patrolling looking for people to fine and suspend. Many people here WANT us to do what I am saying must be done, and is their input telling us to stay the course.

And even when things are rolled back a bit, there are still going to be many infractions that there is no light rap on the knuckles type of warning for. Someone new to this site who jumps right in with profanity, or some of the other less welcome mannerisms will still be subject to the fine and suspension on the very first penalty. Quite frankly, if that is my first brush with a person like that, I want it to be loud and clear that this sort of activity is simply NOT tolerated, and will not, even if it means they leave via the door they newly entered this site by. I don't want there to be any doubt in their minds at all that it will not be tolerated at all. Strict? Why yes it is. Life in general can be strict sometimes, and we just have to deal with it as best we can.

And honestly, I am glad people are taking their time to review their posts closely before submitting them. I think that is the ultimate goal of what I am trying to do. Make this a better site by REQUIRING that the people participating here post in a better manner. I want this site to be a BIG cut above the rest. I want this site to be respected because of the people who frequent it and how they present themselves in a professional and credible manner. And actually, I don't just WANT it, I now expect it. Yes, this will be hard for some people to do, but I honestly think it is a skill well worth honing and becoming accustomed to using often, not just here on this site. To most people you ARE how you present yourself here in public. That is all they may know about you. So why not present yourself at your best, even if it is basically at gunpoint?

Originally Posted by Chamco

...... and which was not the system in place and being practiced when I paid to be a member. Not saying that a crackdown wasn't warranted, or that those terms should have gotten a pass. But you made the decision that you could hold the membership fees and contributions of others hostage, and levy monetary penalties.

Quite simply, Jim, the fines and suspensions were in effect well before the paid membership program was implemented. And when it was implemented, I was very explicit about the fact that paid memberships will NOT entitle anyone to special concessions concerning the rules in relation to their financial contributions to this site (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=64541):

Something that does need to be brought to everyone's attention about these paid membership programs. These are not "get out of jail for free" cards. Paying members are still subject to the rules of this site and are subject to suspensions when warranted. Just because you PAY for a yearly membership does not mean that you are immune to suspensions until the fine is paid. I do doubt this will become an issue, but I feel that it is best to make this clear up front.

How else would you have me handle this? Anyone being a paid member gets a different set of rules applied? The higher the membership fee, the more immunity from the rules? Preferential treatment to those people paying the most in financial support of this site? No, seriously, I am curious to know what you mean by your statement.

And you also infer that once someone becomes a contributing member, then there is some sort of grandfathering in of whatever the rules were at the time of the payment. Just how would you implement something like that and how would it be enforced? The mods would not only have to consider all violations as to whether or not they warrant warning points, but would also have to consult a chart of levels of enforcement depending on whether or not the violator was a paid member BEFORE or AFTER the implementation? Interesting..... Unrealistic, but interesting...... So maybe I should have held a special sale on memberships prior to the crackdown so those people would be immune and could go on along as before while the newer members or non paying members ONLY would be subject to my efforts to try to make this site better?

Seriously, Jim, you are implying that you became a contributor here BECAUSE the stated rules were so lax and people COULD act in the manner that is NOW being greatly restricted? Now those same rules that were in effect then have stiffer penalties attached to them, and you feel that is being unfair to your expected use of this site? Well honestly, there very well may be some people who think like that, and will certainly not renew their memberships because I have taken away some of the entertainment value they relished from this site. Yes, that was a conscious decision I made, and I do not think I will regret making that decision. And I think as well that more people will appreciate this decision I made, then those who will regret it and leave because of it.

Originally Posted by KathyLove

I
I consider myself to be a level headed and thoughtful person who would not normally post anything that would reflect badly on myself - I am not sure why ANYONE wants to do that! But I do feel that if I somehow managed to mess up and inadvertently get a fine, I would be both embarrassed and a bit insulted, if it was the first time in all of these years I made a very minor mistake, and yet was treated the same as an habitual offender.

Kathy,

I am not arguing with your perceptions, they are yours to have and I understand what you are saying. But I was thinking to myself, that no matter how rare the error, the victim who is on the receiving end of a particular comment feels the same amount of hurt at that particular time.

When I got my warning point, I learned from it and went on. I honestly do not feel that the few procedural rules and the overall substantive directive of courtesy is that much of a burden.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Someone new to this site who jumps right in with profanity, or some of the other less welcome mannerisms will still be subject to the fine and suspension on the very first penalty. Quite frankly, if that is my first brush with a person like that, I want it to be loud and clear that this sort of activity is simply NOT tolerated, and will not, even if it means they leave via the door they newly entered this site by. I don't want there to be any doubt in their minds at all that it will not be tolerated at all. Strict? Why yes it is. Life in general can be strict sometimes, and we just have to deal with it as best we can.

Rich. I think any reasonable person would agree with your intent and practice as described above, applicable to anyone, regardless of how long they have been a member.
There seems to be a missing element though. Your focus and comments seem directed at strict enforcement to weed out those who fit the description quoted above. Some of the membership here (at least those who care enough to participate in these topics) has an obvious concern with minor, unintentional infractions, which by your reaction(the moderating team, the system, etc.), lump them in with those you describe above.
I know this is your site, and that it would be impossible to set in place a system which would please everyone, but IMO, this should give you pause. You can't reasonably expect well-intentioned members to feel ok with being bundled in with the garbage just because that's the way it is.
Likewise, you can't shoot down every argument for a better system by saying people are asking for special treatment. Undoubtedly, some do consider themselves worthy of special treatment, but I would wager, it is in reality, a small number.

I have to agree with TomO (quoted below):
"There seems to be a missing element though. Your focus and comments seem directed at strict enforcement to weed out those who fit the description quoted above. Some of the membership here (at least those who care enough to participate in these topics) has an obvious concern with minor, unintentional infractions, which by your reaction(the moderating team, the system, etc.), lump them in with those you describe above.
I know this is your site, and that it would be impossible to set in place a system which would please everyone, but IMO, this should give you pause. You can't reasonably expect well-intentioned members to feel OK with being bundled in with the garbage just because that's the way it is.
Likewise, you can't shoot down every argument for a better system by saying people are asking for special treatment. Undoubtedly, some do consider themselves worthy of special treatment, but I would wager, it is in reality, a small number."


But it is your site and I do understand what you are saying, Webslave. And it has worked so far in cleaning it up. Only time will tell whether it is the exact direction you want to continue with, and whether possible "hurt feelings" will be more detrimental to the site than too much tolerance to errors . I just wanted my viewpoint heard and will let it rest at that, unless new info or viewpoints are posted that warrant more comment.

I sincerely hope you are successful here with whatever direction it goes, since this is the only resource like this available, as far as I know.