about siklback and their husbandry

Originally Posted by Denisebme

Question copied from the other thread
Thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to discuss the genetics Alessandro.
My concern is pretty simple. The primary physical trait in these beardies that appears to be affected is how their bodies process Keratin, which is why they lack the typical scales seem in a beardie. They appear to be missing the upper two levels of the epidermis, the middle layer where scale development occurs and the upper layer which is normally made up of the heavy scales and spikes we are used to seeing.
I have a couple of related questions;
First, if you've had any skin breaks, have you noticed if the healing time is comparable to that of a "normal" bearded dragon?
Second, is the development of any other normal characteristic affected? In other words, are the nails and joints normal or are they more brittle? Are the growth patterns normal?
Third, and this may have already been answered, I've been gone a few days, are you tracking for any other issues that may arise? Unlike color specific breeding, this is a new genetic mutation and it may take a bit of time to see if any other issues come up from their bodies seeming inability to correctly process keratin.
Thanks.

Originally Posted by puppytoes72

denise,you never got your question about the keratin answered yet,did you?

Originally Posted by Denisebme

Not by either of the parties involved here.

These are the questions you asked.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

First, if you've had any skin breaks, have you noticed if the healing time is comparable to that of a "normal" bearded dragon?

Originally Posted by Dachiu

We have not bred her and therefore cannot comment on how the skin has held up through a breeding season. But she was caged with another animal when younger - and received a bite on her tail. The bite was a good one and broke her skin - but she healed just fine and the bite mark is barely noticeable. There were no infections involved. Based on this incident, one would assume that physical breeding could cause harm - especially if the male is aggressive. ((There are other ways of fertilizing a female that offer no direct contact - this has been proven by many. Plus, a Silk does not need to be bred to create another Silk.))

Second question you asked.

Second, is the development of any other normal characteristic affected? In other words, are the nails and joints normal or are they more brittle? Are the growth patterns normal?[/b]

Originally Posted by Dachiu

It seems to me that Ruby’s skin does not complete the folding process… nor I suppose, does the keratinization process finish - Whatever it is exactly that happened, it has not effected anything else that we have noticed. She is now 17 inches, has nails and teeth and her skin is not overly sensitive to touch when handling. She is a happy, outwardly healthy bearded dragon - minus scales.

I took a different approach on the Adeno threads and Denise's on the BOI because it was right. I believed Denise was wronged. This issue specifically about inbreeding being lead by someone who has never bred a reptile and someone else who couldn't even feed their dragon six months ago is ridiculous. It weakens the argument about the legitimate concerns others may have with this mutation.

Also just an outside take, the more adeno and other off topic subjects concerning the way some feel about Dachiu keep intruding on this topic the more it takes away from the positions of some.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

Also just an outside take, the more adeno and other off topic subjects concerning the way some feel about Dachiu keep intruding on this topic the more it takes away from the positions of some.

I agree, i have not entirely liked the idea that people keep mentioning Dachiu in the thread, and is probably another reason why Allesandro is not posting anymore.

This thread was not here for Attacks against somone, it is for the information ABOUT silkbacks. and now, the one person who can say anything about them, other than Dachiu, is gone.

Lets lay off the personal attacks and keep to the information in the thread eh? whatever you guys are saying may very well be true or not (and im at fault for going off topic a bit too) but it dosnt really belong in the thread. *shrug*

I have been holding off writing in the forum because of SOME of the people who write THEIR OPINIONS as if they are facts.

I have personally met Rob and Vicki seen their pristine cages and organization. I have talked with them for many hours. There is ZERO CHANCE they would do anything to jeopardize a dragons health or their 11 year reputation trying to make a quick buck. Those of you who imply in your posts that they will breed the leather back before they are darn sure of what will happen are simply ill informed and do not know their charactor. I have seen, held, and even cleaned the cages and feed their animals. I feel honored that Rob would even trust me to work with his cages. He is simply put very anal about keeping the cages clean, feeding, lighting, temperature and will not even let anyone else form the dirt in the egg laying cages. He is simply in total control and frankly darn good at it. Those of you who can obtain any of his knowledge should consider yourselves very lucky and take great care not to ruin a good thing. Having personal knowledge of how he and Vicki treat the dragons, spend unbelievable hours a day and night caring for them it really makes me angry to have some ungrateful people running their mouths. Their is a respectful way to ask a question without challenging someones honestly and charactor. When an answer is given either accept it or ask a clarifying question with respect. Please non of us are g-d and no one is perfect. Please be respectful of others charactor until you know for sure what you are saying. Thank you for listening.....Richard

Originally Posted by fstop2100a

I have been holding off writing in the forum because of SOME of the people who write THEIR OPINIONS as if they are facts.

I have personally met Rob and Vicki seen their pristine cages and organization. I have talked with them for many hours. There is ZERO CHANCE they would do anything to jeopardize a dragons health or their 11 year reputation trying to make a quick buck. Those of you who imply in your posts that they will breed the leather back before they are darn sure of what will happen are simply ill informed and do not know their charactor. I have seen, held, and even cleaned the cages and feed their animals. I feel honored that Rob would even trust me to work with his cages. He is simply put very anal about keeping the cages clean, feeding, lighting, temperature and will not even let anyone else form the dirt in the egg laying cages. He is simply in total control and frankly darn good at it. Those of you who can obtain any of his knowledge should consider yourselves very lucky and take great care not to ruin a good thing. Having personal knowledge of how he and Vicki treat the dragons, spend unbelievable hours a day and night caring for them it really makes me angry to have some ungrateful people running their mouths. Their is a respectful way to ask a question without challenging someones honestly and charactor. When an answer is given either accept it or ask a clarifying question with respect. Please non of us are g-d and no one is perfect. Please be respectful of others charactor until you know for sure what you are saying. Thank you for listening.....Richard

Great post! I agree that the attacks and blatant challenges made toward the Dachiu's have been utterly ridiculous. It blows my mind how people can make so many assumptions based on absolutely no facts. I have spoken with Vicky and Rob on a couple of occasions, and they seem like very honest, caring people tome.

Jamie

Originally Posted by fstop2100a

I have been holding off writing in the forum because of SOME of the people who write THEIR OPINIONS as if they are facts.

I have personally met Rob and Vicki seen their pristine cages and organization. I have talked with them for many hours. There is ZERO CHANCE they would do anything to jeopardize a dragons health or their 11 year reputation trying to make a quick buck. Those of you who imply in your posts that they will breed the leather back before they are darn sure of what will happen are simply ill informed and do not know their charactor. I have seen, held, and even cleaned the cages and feed their animals. I feel honored that Rob would even trust me to work with his cages. He is simply put very anal about keeping the cages clean, feeding, lighting, temperature and will not even let anyone else form the dirt in the egg laying cages. He is simply in total control and frankly darn good at it. Those of you who can obtain any of his knowledge should consider yourselves very lucky and take great care not to ruin a good thing. Having personal knowledge of how he and Vicki treat the dragons, spend unbelievable hours a day and night caring for them it really makes me angry to have some ungrateful people running their mouths. Their is a respectful way to ask a question without challenging someones honestly and charactor. When an answer is given either accept it or ask a clarifying question with respect. Please non of us are g-d and no one is perfect. Please be respectful of others charactor until you know for sure what you are saying. Thank you for listening.....Richard

Sorry Richard, I have to disagree here. I don't think that anyone is attacking on a personal level because they have concerns about this morph, and believe me when I say I'm waiting patiently to hear the response to the questions I have specifically asked on issues arising from the inability of this morph to correctly uptake Keratin.
Yes, people have strong opinions about it, regardless of the breeders involved. One check on well established boards shows that the upset isn't just here on Fauna and it isn't just restricted to Americans or people who disagree with some of Dachiu's practices. Any issue like this is going to be passionate, and its a discussion that needs to be had.
The passion we've seen here isn't restricted to beardie people, nor is it restricted to only particular breeders. You see this come up anytime someone markets an animal that to a lot of other people would appear to have physical deformities. If you go to the inbreeding thread and look for similar subjects, you find at least 5 others dealing with other species.
While no one is perfect, it could also be said that no one is above criticism either.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

Sorry Richard, I have to disagree here. I don't think that anyone is attacking on a personal level because they have concerns about this morph, and believe me when I say I'm waiting patiently to hear the response to the questions I have specifically asked on issues arising from the inability of this morph to correctly uptake Keratin.
Yes, people have strong opinions about it, regardless of the breeders involved. One check on well established boards shows that the upset isn't just here on Fauna and it isn't just restricted to Americans or people who disagree with some of Dachiu's practices. Any issue like this is going to be passionate, and its a discussion that needs to be had.
The passion we've seen here isn't restricted to beardie people, nor is it restricted to only particular breeders. You see this come up anytime someone markets an animal that to a lot of other people would appear to have physical deformities. If you go to the inbreeding thread and look for similar subjects, you find at least 5 others dealing with other species.
While no one is perfect, it could also be said that no one is above criticism either.

great post

hy eveybody, i have a question. can we please mantain the discussion on the subject of the thread?? i think that things concerning the personal comment on how people act andwhat happened in the past shold be discussed directly within two people or at least should go in another post.
as i want to answer to the question and i would like that this post will clear out all the concerning, i suggest that the posts should be addressed only on care maintenance and breeding of silkback. thank to everybody.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

I'm waiting patiently to hear the response to the questions I have specifically asked on issues arising from the inability of this morph to correctly uptake Keratin.

hy at the moment i think we can give you a suggestion because at the moment i don't see any difference from the other animals. it certainly need more investigation, but we need to wait and see. at the meomnt the only difference is that they achieve the body temp before a "normal" one. for that reason my silkback are the first who start eat in the morning. i haven't seen any deformities nor even a problem with absorbtion of calcium.

hope it will help
alessandro

Hello Alessandro,

Were you going to be updating us each time a clutch hatches out, etc, with progress reports & any types of problems that you are seeing? That is one thing I would like to see, personally.
I would also like to know the timeframe you are looking at as to how quickly they reach their optimal temperature & how long they hold their body temperature as well.
Thank you.
I do agree with previous posts though, if Dachiu doesn't want to be in the limelight, then she can wait & let Alessandro do all of the research & legwork right now, until more is known about the health & longevity of these dragons.

Tracie

Originally Posted by alessandro

hy eveybody, i have a question. can we please mantain the discussion on the subject of the thread?? i think that things concerning the personal comment on how people act andwhat happened in the past shold be discussed directly within two people or at least should go in another post.
as i want to answer to the question and i would like that this post will clear out all the concerning, i suggest that the posts should be addressed only on care maintenance and breeding of silkback. thank to everybody.


hy at the moment i think we can give you a suggestion because at the moment i don't see any difference from the other animals. it certainly need more investigation, but we need to wait and see. at the meomnt the only difference is that they achieve the body temp before a "normal" one. for that reason my silkback are the first who start eat in the morning. i haven't seen any deformities nor even a problem with absorbtion of calcium.

hope it will help
alessandro

Alessandro,
The simple fact that they are missing any form of scale is a huge difference between this morph and a "normal" bearded dragon. Even in a leatherback, the top two layers of the epidermis, the stratum Corneum and the Intermediate Zone are well developed. The fact that so much of the natural epidermis is what would lead someone to use the phrase "deformity" in relation to this morph.
I'm not one of those people who has problems with color morphs, as long as the proper outcrossing is done and the animals health is the top consideration every step of the way.
I'm concerned in this case because their has been a substantial change in the genetic makeup of this animal, and that "break" in the DNA has led to an error which is causing the lack of scale. This type of break is rarely isolated to just one issue.

Originally Posted by fstop2100a

I have been holding off writing in the forum because of SOME of the people who write THEIR OPINIONS as if they are facts.

I have personally met Rob and Vicki seen their pristine cages and organization. I have talked with them for many hours. There is ZERO CHANCE they would do anything to jeopardize a dragons health or their 11 year reputation trying to make a quick buck. Those of you who imply in your posts that they will breed the leather back before they are darn sure of what will happen are simply ill informed and do not know their charactor. I have seen, held, and even cleaned the cages and feed their animals. I feel honored that Rob would even trust me to work with his cages. He is simply put very anal about keeping the cages clean, feeding, lighting, temperature and will not even let anyone else form the dirt in the egg laying cages. He is simply in total control and frankly darn good at it. Those of you who can obtain any of his knowledge should consider yourselves very lucky and take great care not to ruin a good thing. Having personal knowledge of how he and Vicki treat the dragons, spend unbelievable hours a day and night caring for them it really makes me angry to have some ungrateful people running their mouths. Their is a respectful way to ask a question without challenging someones honestly and charactor. When an answer is given either accept it or ask a clarifying question with respect. Please non of us are g-d and no one is perfect. Please be respectful of others charactor until you know for sure what you are saying. Thank you for listening.....Richard

I'm glad that your experiences with the Dachius have been so good, but not all of us can say the same. Evidently, you've never been on the receiving end of some of the unethical behavior that some of us have experienced. If you had been, you might understand why it's difficult to "respectfully" ask a question of someone you lost all respect for due to that unethical behavior. That unethical behavior, at least in my opinion, neither showed honesty or a good character.

As for the silkbacks, if the Dachius didn't want to be involved in the controversy that would knowingly surround the mutation, maybe they shouldn't have gotten involved. People aren't lashing out about the Dachius, they're lashing out about the mutation. There really is a difference.