Kyle Hiner--sold me a disfigured Leachie

Hello, just wanted to share my recent experience with Kyle Hiner of Winter Haven FL. I saw his ad for a pine leachie on this forum in the classifieds section. I contacted him and ended up buying the animal. Here's what I got:











notice the miniature deformed front right leg? and the deformity continues up the neck and through the skull and the mandible. She can't even turn her head to the left?!? I have extensive experience (raised 30+ leachies) and I know this is a case of secondary hyperparathyroidism (MBD) I know the breeder who produced the animal in question and have contacted her. It was sold in perfect condition as a baby at the Daytona show. I also have other healthy animals from the same dam and sire that produced the animal in question. Kyle claims that it there is nothing wrong with the animal, and accuses me of trying to scam him. He even went so far as to say that I had photo-shopped the photos, or switched out the animal?!? Here are the emails:


Quote:
Sent: Wed, Jun 23, 2010 10:30 am
Subject: RE: Pine leachie?


just got the little one...was she deformed when you got her? her front right leg is about half as big as it should be, and the deformity is even evident through her neck, skull and mandible??? I'm trying to figure out if the problem is nutritional, or husbandry related or genetic??? to me, it looks like she has been fed baby food and/or kept too dry...just trying to figure out what to do with her. She can't even turn her head to the left. Since I can't ever breed her...I'd like at least a partial refund.

Talk with you soon,

Brian Grussing

and his response:


Quote:
Subject: Re: Pine leachie?
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 00:35:10 -0400
Hey sorry Im getting back so late had to pull a double today, That is my first leachie, and I did get it from vikki, and it looked perfectly fine to me when I sent it out, ive done numerous deals in the reptile world so I always take the time to look at my animals before I send them out. I have never done anyone in the reptile community wrong and im not trying to do you wrong its just that I looked at that gecko yesterday and didnt notice the deformities you are mentioning nor am I seeing them in any of the numerous pics I have of her.................Sorry.......................Ky le

my response:

Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 9:44 am
Subject: RE: Pine leachie?



Quote:
Take a closer look...I included some shots of my Pine from the same parents, that is the same size--so you could see what she would look like if she wasn't deformed--no twisted bone structure, no miniature limb. Their front feet are supposed to be almost as big as their back feet, and their legs are supposed to be symmetrical...

the first 6 pics are of my healthy Pine from the same parents (Vicki), the rest are of the animal you just sent me...we need to talk

Brian Grussing

his response:


Quote:
Sent: Thu 6/24/10 11:20 AM
Sorry I dont see the deformities you are talking about. I took good care of this gecko and I will not be screwed over again, I have had people send me back screwed up animals after I sent them a perfectly healthy gecko, how do I know you didnt just take pics of one of the deformed geckos you got from another breeder, or your could just photo shop to make them look uneven, go ahead and post on the BOI and I will post my response and the 30 some odd people ive done transactions with in the last year...................Thanks...................Ky le

I can't help but worry about any other animals Kyle may be "taking care" of...maybe he just doesn't understand, but this is a serious deal breaker, if an animal isn't in perfect health and condition, then it is a "rescue", not a sellable animal...she is permanently disfigured, and has so little bone mass in her right side, arm, neck, skull and mandible, she is stuck always looking to the right...very, very sad situation.

Originally Posted by dinodaddy

Quote:
Subject: Re: Pine leachie?
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 00:35:10 -0400
Hey sorry Im getting back so late had to pull a double today, That is my first leachie, and I did get it from vikki, and it looked perfectly fine to me when I sent it out, ive done numerous deals in the reptile world so I always take the time to look at my animals before I send them out. I have never done anyone in the reptile community wrong and im not trying to do you wrong its just that I looked at that gecko yesterday and didnt notice the deformities you are mentioning nor am I seeing them in any of the numerous pics I have of her.................Sorry.......................Ky le

Quote:
Sent: Thu 6/24/10 11:20 AM
Sorry I dont see the deformities you are talking about. I took good care of this gecko and I will not be screwed over again, I have had people send me back screwed up animals after I sent them a perfectly healthy gecko, how do I know you didnt just take pics of one of the deformed geckos you got from another breeder, or your could just photo shop to make them look uneven, go ahead and post on the BOI and I will post my response and the 30 some odd people ive done transactions with in the last year...................Thanks...................Ky le

That's a pretty sad looking gecko.

I highlighted some comments from Kyle that stood out to me. The instant you let him know something might be wrong he goes on the defensive and says, "I never did anything wrong!"...which is a bit of a red flag to start with.

And then in his very next reply to you, he says he's had PEOPLE send him back "screwed up" animals that he had shipped out to them.

It SOUNDS to me like Kyle might be someone who flips animals and doesn't bother with even basic husbandry concerns...and doesn't know or care enough about the animals to even notice the physical issues his lack of care causes. Another red flag is when he says "maybe you took pictures of some other gecko"....can't he recognize his own animal that he supposedly has enough pictures of himself to determine she is perfectly healthy?

That's what it LOOKS like based on seeing one side of the story. Maybe Kyle will chime in on his own behalf and explain and post up some of his own pictures.

One thing I saw. If he has such an immaculate record in this community. Why would he be OK with you(the OP) making a badguy post? I'd be sending you a full refund etc. Just odd IMO.

I don't work with leachies but even I can see the deformities! Brian, I'm sorry you got rooked but at least the gecko is with someone who can provide proper care now. Good luck!

Is the seller aware of this thread?

I believe the OP referenced making this thread to the seller in his previous convo.

The Leachie definantly has issues :/, sorry for hassle I'd demand a refund

The right thing is for him to take the animal back and refund the money. Is it really that difficult? Getting the animal back and refunding the money would keep this from becoming a "bad guy" thread. Is one transaction really worth tarnishing your reputation? It's not like she's asking for a refund and then money for her time. She received an animal with a slight (being modest) deformity that wasn't visible in the photos in the ad. Accidents happen, breeders/keepers/sellers can make mistakes. It's just about making it right and being proud of what you do. If you're proud of your "reputation" then you'd do the right thing and give her money back.

Just my opinion.

First off I checked the gecko when it was shipped off and didnt notice any deformities, that is why I will not give him a full refund, he admitted to me in a email that he gets 10 or so deformed geckos a month from leachie breeders, so how am I to know that I wont be getting one of those in the mail, I have raised dozens of different gecko species and have never had a problem because I do extinsive research on my animals before I get them, she was fed a leachie diet from rapashy, one that I know multiple leachie breeders use. On to the next thing....Judy thank you for trying to nit pick at my emails, your desperate attempt at finding somthing wrong in them just emphisizes your lack of a life, I said I had people send my back different animals than I sent them, and you twist the words to me saying i send out screwed up animals that always come back. Next when I said I never did anyone in the reptile community wrong it wasnt a desperate attempt at saying I did nothing wrong as you chimed in, I was simply putting it to him that I have numerous good refernces and will not be threatend into being scammed.

http://geckoforums.net/itrader.php?u=19249
Here are 16 or so satisfied customers from a well known gecko forum,
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...light=whkrazyk
another happy customer
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ght=kyle+hiner
And there's 2 more
This is the only person ive ever had try to go this far on a scam, I HAVE NEVER DONE ANYONE WRONG(Judy dont nit pick at that) and I will not be scammed again, so he will not be recieving a refund, and if anyone doesnt want to do business with me over this then its a reflection of your own shallow behaviors, and im probably better off staying away from you!
All I have to say..................Kyle

Originally Posted by WHKRAZYK

First off I checked the gecko when it was shipped off and didnt notice any deformities, that is why I will not give him a full refund, he admitted to me in a email that he gets 10 or so deformed geckos a month from leachie breeders, so how am I to know that I wont be getting one of those in the mail, I have raised dozens of different gecko species and have never had a problem because I do extinsive research on my animals before I get them, she was fed a leachie diet from rapashy, one that I know multiple leachie breeders use. On to the next thing....Judy thank you for trying to nit pick at my emails, your desperate attempt at finding somthing wrong in them just emphisizes your lack of a life, I said I had people send my back different animals than I sent them, and you twist the words to me saying i send out screwed up animals that always come back. Next when I said I never did anyone in the reptile community wrong it wasnt a desperate attempt at saying I did nothing wrong as you chimed in, I was simply putting it to him that I have numerous good refernces and will not be threatend into being scammed.

Proof of bolded claim please.