Kyle Hiner--sold me a disfigured Leachie

Here are all 3 of the original pics Kyle sent me...I should've known something was not right from the shed adhesions on the toes...but that just made me want to "rescue" the little one all the more...







If I was smart, I'd have asked for pics from other angles...hindsight is 20/20

It looks to me to be the same animal. There is a distinct red mark on the right shoulder. Now, how old was the picture when it was taken is the question. The right foot is still smaller, but she is fatter in the pic he sent you.
As for being sent to you in the condition you received it, something was obviously wrong.

Kyle, I suggest that when you send out animals, take pics with one of the nails painted so that you know it's the same animal. Call the buyer right away so that both of you have reached an agreement wiyhout having to come to this point.

I am a guy who has bought many leachies; and paid top dollar for them as "pure" locality animals, but when I personally re-traced their backgrounds, I found out that some of them were of unknown origins, or from pairs that were imported before Frank and Philipe classified the different island types. So instead of selling their offspring as "pure" locality, just because that's what I bought them as, I did my research, and so I call them/sell them as "unknown" henkeli. So as not to further confuse the captive gene pools. I do my best to tell the whole story, to the best of my knowledge. I have lost many sales because I admit I don't exactly know the history of some of my geckos, and now I'm being accused of fraud?!? This hobby has way too many shady people in it...I would never lie to make a sale or a buck, no matter how badly I may need the money...these are living creatures! either do your homework and treat them with love and respect they deserve, or leave them to those who do/will. I'm still sick to my stomach about this whole thing

Brian Grussing

Did the Lawson & Clark School For Flippers open for business when I wasn't looking? These posts could be verbatim from either of those two, answering yet another "illegitimate complaint".

Brian, I think people can see what's up here. Trust me, no one's seriously considering that you swapped the geckos or will return him a different one. There is a LOT to be said about someone by how they comport themselves in a heated discussion, and the person that doesn't feel the need to resort to personal insults, name-calling, and bullying is usually in the right.

Kyle's posts and attitude are not the posts and attitude of someone who is being open, honest, and forthright.

I have been reading through this whole thread, and all I can say is, "Wow, I will NOT be doing business with Kyle, ever." Not because he sent out an animal that had problems, or even because he flips animals, but because he handled this so poorly. In looking at the photos pulled from Kyle's photobucket, it looks like the leachie pictured has its head kinked in an odd position. I don't own any leachies, but I do own other geckos and I've never seen one rest in such a position. However, when dinodaddy just posted the pictures Kyle originally sent him, it looks to me like the small, deformed foot is clearly visible in those pictures as well. Maybe the angle made the OP not notice it, but it really looks like a tiny foot with all kinds of stuck shed in that picture. That's the same animal, and it was in bad condition long before the OP got it, but dinodaddy, why didn't you notice the tiny foot in the pics you just posted that Kyle sent you before you bought it?
Kyle, just send him a partial refund and try to regain some respect.

Originally Posted by Will0W783

I have been reading through this whole thread, and all I can say is, "Wow, I will NOT be doing business with Kyle, ever." Not because he sent out an animal that had problems, or even because he flips animals, but because he handled this so poorly.

I completely agree. I was thinking "this isn't so bad." until Kyle posted his first reply. I would NEVER do business with somebody so rude and immature. This is a great smiley for you, Kyle because it's exactly what you did.

I did notice the foot, but i assumed it was just tucked under her side like leachies do when they're scared and trying to hug the tree to avoid predators. And the stuck shed; is so big, it looked like a rip in the jeans in the 3rd pic?

I completely agree. I was thinking "this isn't so bad." until Kyle posted his first reply.

this isn't so bad??? you can't sell deformed animals, let alone for what the perfectly healthy ones are worth, and then deny the issues and accuse the buyer, (your "client") that they are "trying to pull a fast one on you". Leachianus are not cheap, this one cost me half my months salary, and I was happy to pay that for a healthy animal from this awesome Pine line, but that's not at all what I got. This female is permanently disfigured, and should never be bred, and I am a breeder. I have been mislead and flat out lied to. Maybe Kyle really does know what he's doing with leopard geckos and/or other species, but leachies are not leopard geckos...their husbandry requirements, dietary requirements, growth rate and extremely reclusive behavior make them a completely different animal...with completely different needs. To be clear, it was my responsibility to demand more info/pics, so the only victim here is the gecko. I just wanted the community to know how Kyle handled the situation. After this experience--I will only buy animals from respectable people who breed leachies--people whom I personally know and trust. All I wanted was half the money back (minus shipping of course)...if that isn't a generous compromise then I don't know what to say...

Brian Grussing

Originally Posted by dinodaddy

I did notice the foot, but i assumed it was just tucked under her side like leachies do when they're scared and trying to hug the tree to avoid predators. And the stuck shed; is so big, it looked like a rip in the jeans in the 3rd pic?



this isn't so bad??? you can't sell deformed animals, let alone for what the perfectly healthy ones are worth, and then deny the issues and accuse the buyer, (your "client") that they are "trying to pull a fast one on you". Leachianus are not cheap, this one cost me half my months salary, and I was happy to pay that for a healthy animal from this awesome Pine line, but that's not at all what I got. This female is permanently disfigured, and should never be bred, and I am a breeder. I have been mislead and flat out lied to. Maybe Kyle really does know what he's doing with leopard geckos and/or other species, but leachies are not leopard geckos...their husbandry requirements, dietary requirements, growth rate and extremely reclusive behavior make them a completely different animal...with completely different needs. To be clear, it was my responsibility to demand more info/pics, so the only victim here is the gecko. I just wanted the community to know how Kyle handled the situation. After this experience--I will only buy animals from respectable people who breed leachies--people whom I personally know and trust. All I wanted was half the money back (minus shipping of course)...if that isn't a generous compromise then I don't know what to say...

Brian Grussing

Am I missing something? If this animal is still young and receives the proper nutritional requirements then why is it unbreedable?

Do you really think it's wise to breed an animal that has skeletal deformities?? because for me, I can't help but expect her to more susceptile to a 'calcium crash'...it takes alot of calcium to shell 2 eggs...and a deformed female, even properly taken care of is still deformed. Do you expect the deformities to dissipate or dissapear just because she's now receiving proper nutrition and thermal and humidity gradients? She is only 20g, but she will still be deformed when/if she ever reaches well over 200g...like a healthy gecko from this line would.

Brian Grussing

I think you are confused about the differences between genetic and nutritional deformities, but that is ok......it does not matter to me whether you choose to add the stress of breeding 2 years down the road or not so not need to respond back with some witty retort....hopefully you get a refund for that misrepresented purchase.