Rhino Viper Bites?

Originally Posted by YJHB

Well, give me an example of a worse envenomation...those effects look pretty awful to me, but maybe there's worse.

I've always wondered about kraits, for instance. They are smaller and probably faster.

They are pretty deadly...but dead is dead.

I found this listing which may give some indication about various snakes including LD50's and the amount of venom injected in a typical bite. Of course the fact that you may not die from a particular bite does not mean that you won't spend 24-48 hours wishing that you had.

Toxicity of Selected Snake Venoms

Species : Hook-nosed seasnake (Enhydrina schistosa) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.02 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 7-79.0

Species : Russel’s viper (Vipera russelii) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.03 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 130.0-250.0

Species : Inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.03 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 44.0-110.0

Species : Dubois’s reef saesnake (Aipysurus duboisii) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.04 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 0.07

Species : Eastern brownsnake (Pseudechis textilis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.05 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 2.0-67.0

Species : Black mamba (Dendroaspis polylepis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.05 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 50.0-100.0

Species : Tiger rattlesnake (Crotalus tigris) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.06 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 6.0-11.0

Species : Boomslang (Dispholidus typus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.07 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 1.6-8.0

Species : Yellow-bellied seasnake (Pelamis platurus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.07 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 1.0-4.0

Species : Common Indian krait (Bungarus caeruleus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.09 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 8.0-20.0

Species : Desert horned viper (Cerastes cerastes) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.10 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 20.0-45.0

Species : Common taipan (Oxyuranus scutellatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.10 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 120.0-400.0

Species : Common European viper (Vipera berus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.11 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 10.0-18.0

Species : Tigersnake (Notechis scutatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.12 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 35.0-189.0

Species : Forest cobra (Naja melanoleuca) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.12 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Puffadder (Bitis arietans) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.14 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 100.0-300.0

Species : Gaboon viper (Bitis gabonica) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.14 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 350.0-600.0

Species : Seakrait (Laticauda laticaudata) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.16 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Neotropical rattlesnake (Crotalus durissus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.17 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 20.0-100.0

Species : Mojave rattlesnake (Crotalus sculutulus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.18 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 50.0-150

Species : Egyptian cobra (Naja haje) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.19 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 175.0-300.0

Species : Harlequin coralsnake (Micrurus fulvius) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.20 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 3.0-5.0

Species : Ottoman viper (Vipera xanthina) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.20 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 8.0-18.0

Species : Erabu seakrait (Laticauda semifasciata) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.21 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 2.0-14.0

Species : African birdsnake (Thelotornis kirtlandii) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.21 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Ringhal (Hemachatus haemachatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.22 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 80.0-120.0

Species : Olive seasnake (Aipysurus laevis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.22 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 10.0-33.0

Species : Black-necked cobra (Naja nigricollis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.23 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 150.0-350.0

Species : Saw-scaled viper (Echis carinatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.24 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 5.0-48.0

Species : Common mamba (Dendroaspis angusticeps) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.26 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 60.0-95.0

Species : Bar-beelied seasnake (Hydrophis elegans) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.27 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 9.0-24.0

Species : Spectacled cobra (Naja naja) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.28 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 150.0-600.0

Species : Annulated seasnake (Hydrophis cyanocinctus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.35 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 5.0-8.0

Species : Fer-de-lance (Bothrops atrox) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.35 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 100.0-200.0

Species : White-lipped tree pitviper (Trimeresurus albolabris) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.37 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 8.0-15.0

Species : Hundred-pace pitviper (Deinagkistrodon acutus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.38 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Central American coralsnake (Micrurus nigrocinctus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.40 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 5.0-8.0

Species : Northern moleviper (Atractaspis microlepidota) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : ? Venom yield per snake (mg) : 5.0-10.0

Species : Yellow-lipped seakrait (Laticauda colubrina) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.40 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Jararacussu (Bothrobs jararacussu) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.46 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 200.0-321.0

Species : Nose-horned viper (Vipera ammodytes) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.48 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Common blacksnake (Pseudechis porphyriacus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.50 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 30.0-50.0

Species : Deathadder (Acanthophis antarcticus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.60 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 70.0-236.0

Species : Hardwicke’s seasnake (Lapemis curtus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.62 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 2.4-15.0

Species : Southern coralsnake (Micrurus frontalis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.63 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 20.0-30.0

Species : Blunt-nosed viper (Viperina lebetina) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.64 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 12.0-150.0

Species : Wagler’s pitviper (Tropidolaemus wagleri) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.75 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 65.0-90.0

Species : Cantil (Agkistrodon bilineatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.80 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 50.0-95.0

Species : King cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.90 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 350.0-500.0

Species : Twin-spoted rattlesnake (Crotalus pricei) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 0.95 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 4.0-8.0

Species : European asp (Vipera aspis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.00 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 9.0-10.0

Species : Western rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.01 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 35.0-250.0

Species : Terciopelo (Bothrops asper) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.10 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 100.0.-310.0

Species : Jararaca (Bothrops jararaca) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.10 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 40.0-70.0

Species : Banded krait (Bungarus fasciatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.20. Venom yield per snake (mg) : 20.0-114.0

Species : Mamushi (Agkistrodon blomhffii) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.20 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 1.0-7.0

Species : Eastern diamondback rattlesnake (Crotalus adamentus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.20 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 200.0-850.0

Species : Malayan pitviper (Callosellasma rhodostoma) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.24 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 40.0-60.0

Species : Picados pitviper (Porthidium picadoi) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.33 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 50.0-70.0

Species : Eyelash palm pitviper (Bothriechis schlegelii) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.60 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 10.0-20.0

Species : Timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.64 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 75.0-210.0

Species : Common nightadder (Causus Rhombeatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 1.85 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 20.0-30.0

Species : Lowland copperhead (Austrelaps superbus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.00 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Urutu (Bothrps alternatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.00 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 60.0-100.0

Species : Cottonmouth ( Agkistrodon piscivorus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.04 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 80.0-170.0

Species : Orsini’s viper (Vipera ursinii) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.17 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 1.0-4.0

Species : Western diamondback rattlesnake (Crotalus atrox) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.20 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 175.0-600.0

Species : Jumping pitviper (Porthidium nummifer) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.40 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 40.0-60.0

Species : Sidewinder (Crotalus cerastes) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.60 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 18.0-50.0

Species : Pygmy rattlesnake (Sistrurus miliarius) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.80 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 12.0-35.0

Species : Massasauga (Sistrurus catenatus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 2.90 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 15.0-45.0

Species : Okinawa habu (Trimeresurus flavoviridis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 3.05 Venom yield per snake (mg) : ?

Species : Red diamond rattlesnake (Crotalus rubber) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 3.70 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 120.0-450.0

Species : Speckled palm pitviper (Bothriechis nigroviridis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 4.00 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 10.0-20.0

Species : Bushmaster (Lachesis muta) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 4.50 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 200.0-500.0

Species : Rainforest hognosed pitviper (Porthidium nsautum) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 4.60 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 12.0-25.0

Species : Side-stirped palm pitviper (Bothriechis lateralis) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 4.84 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 10.0-20.0

Species : Slender hognosed pitviper (Porthidium ophryomegas) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 6.30 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 10.0-20.0

Species : Godman’s pitviper (Pothidium godmani) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 7.60 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 10.0-20.0

Species : Rock rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 9.00 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 129.0

Species : Copperhead (Agkistrodon contotrix) Mouse LD50 (mg/kg) : 10.90 Venom yield per snake (mg) : 40.0-75.0

okay, I need to look up LD50 then....I'm VERY uninitiated when it comes to hots because I have no interest in keeping animals that can turn the tables on me. I'll post here if (WHEN) I have questions, haha

Originally Posted by YJHB

okay, I need to look up LD50 then....I'm VERY uninitiated when it comes to hots because I have no interest in keeping animals that can turn the tables on me. I'll post here if (WHEN) I have questions, haha

LD50 aka Lethal Dose 50 is that amount of venom which is lethal for 50% of the "recipients". LD50 is also used for drug and other toxin ingestions.

To have this discussion, one must consider which factors to look at. "dangerous" is generally accepted to be a combination of venom toxicity (by LD50), venom yield (how much is injected), and likelihood of envenomation. Therefore, a species that has fairly potent venom and a really pi$$y attitude would be considered more dangerous than one with with more potent venom that is generally disinclined to bite (likelihood of exposure to humans can sometimes be factored in here, ie a snake commonly found in populated areas could be considered more dangerous than a sea snake). If you want to base it which has a "worse envenomation", what criteria are you looking at...ugliest physical symptoms? pain? fastest or surest death? At this point, I guess an overview of the toxicity scale is warranted. LD50, can be broken down into 2 components: LD (lethal dose), and 50 (as in percent). the LD50 is the amount of a substance, in this case venom, that is lethal in 50% of a group of test animals. The route of administration is important because a substance can have different ld50s when administered by different routes. With venom, subcutaneous is the most commonly referenced (because that is where most venom will end up), but there are scales for IV and IM also. The rhino viper has an IM LD50 of 8.6 mg/kg (yes, I had to look that up, lol). A gaboon viper's is 5.2, a puff adder's is 2, and a black spitting cobra's is 0.44. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to compare different snakes because they may not be tested in the same scale/method. But to continue - A gaboon viper (see previous reference) has an IV LD50 of 6.722...so it takes more venom if injected into a vein than into a muscle. Why? because when it is injected directly into the muscle it causes much more local damage as well as progressively destroying tissue as it moves through the prey. Conversely, the puff adder's IV ld50 is 1.32. Chalk that up to the difference in the action of the venom. To get really impressive, the tiger rattlesnake has an IV ld50 of 0.056, the eastern brown snake's is 0.01. To take a look at some more examples - here is where I found the numbers quoted above: http://www.venomdoc.com/LD50/LD50men.html.

just to give an idea - an adult gaboon viper can have 2 - 2 1/2 inch fangs (hence the IM measurement, lol), and inject an ounce of venom (that's 30cc, which is more descriptive to healthcare workers)

dammit Jim, you stole my thunder cuz I had to see what the dogs were fussing about, lol. I saw your name down there and figured you were working on it

Originally Posted by hhmoore

dammit Jim, you stole my thunder cuz I had to see what the dogs were fussing about, lol. I saw your name down there and figured you were working on it

OMG, they inject 30cc??
Here's something interesting...you cannot inject more than 3 or 4 cc's into even a very large muscle (like in the thigh) without causing harm from the injection itself...it's too much volume. ALSO, on some adult humans 2.5 inches is too long and the fangs will hit the bone. Bones have and need vascular systems too. What this means, is the loss of an appendage from death of the bone...
LD50, okay. I should have remembered that from nursing school, but I don't deal much with that end of things
I guess the draw of hots is the same as the draw of speed for persons like me (love downhill skiing and jet skiing)

And thank you for this thread; I am learning a lot!

That's not to say that the full amount of venom is injected with any/every bite...just that they are capable of delivering that much.

Is it really true that a 'hot' can decide not to envenomate with a bite?