Updates- Hatched Veileds LOTS OF PICS

I dont know if this is any relevence to the thread, but sometihng is fishy about a name here

Name : Jack Meholf

Now say that last name several times..... Sounds just like Jack Me-off.. If it is truely his last name i apologize......

Originally Posted by Bringerofdoom

I dont know if this is any relevence to the thread, but sometihng is fishy about a name here

Name : Jack Meholf

Now say that last name several times..... Sounds just like Jack Me-off.. If it is truely his last name i apologize......

You notice the weirdest things lol

Does look like a real name from this search on the white pages in CA:
http://www.infospace.com/_1_2RD8UT20...olf&qf=jack&qc=

Originally Posted by dragonflyreptiles

You notice the weirdest things lol

Does look like a real name from this search on the white pages in CA:
http://www.infospace.com/_1_2RD8UT20...lf&qf=jack&qc=

wow, ok it might just be a real name then. Parents can pick the wierdest name combinations....

Wendy,

Yes the sun puts out more UV rays than any of these lights ever will but the difference is forced exposure. Being able to hide under a couple leaves while a high intensity UV output bulb blasts itself into a small tank full of baby chameleons is disasterous. The tank just isn't large enough for one of those bulbs to really work as they should without harming the animals. I'm glad it was only on one side of the tank but I would still be concerned about using it on that cage, especially with babies. Basically you have a spot of sudden high intensity UV radiation and another of none, thats not really a gradient. Outside the chameleon can be anywhere from direct sunlight to broken sunlight within a tree where the rays are tapering off to deep within the tree without much UV. In that cage you don't have the capabilities to really do that effectively. To use that bulb safely with chameleons you need a much larger enclosure where the light can radiate in a larger area (not a concentrated spot), tapper off in the vegitation and tapper off as you get further away from the light in both directions (vertical and horizontal). Just because it is recommended to allow the animal within a certain distance doesn't mean it should be limited such that all of its power is contain in one spot at that distance.

As for your bulb being more complete with higher UVA/B outputs, that really doesn't mean much of anything with regard to its quality for reptiles or specifically for chameleons. For instance, UVA and UVB range between 290-400nm (UVB is from 290-320). The steroid used in D3 photosynthesis is most sensitive to wavelengths between 270-305nm and wavelengths between 315-330nm actually negatively affect this steroid meaning such high levels of UVA and UVB could potentially be terrible. The study I cited that tested the bulbs took this into account and decided that of the bulbs tested, the reptisun 5.0 was the best by far.

So with your bulb, you are taking a huge risk because you don't have any idea what actual wavelengths are being put out and in what concentrations and based on Ferguson's work, you're taking risks with the health of your animals due to the high output levels. Like I said, higher radiance levels may be fine for tortoises, Varanids and other more desert or thicker skinned reptiles but it just isn't the case with captive chameleons in the majority of captive enclosures.

Chris

As you can see they had tons of vegetation to hide under and on etc and there were not tons of babies in the tank unless 8 is a ton.

I do not think they were at risk with the gradient they had and being in the tank for 3 days only. They were moved out as soon as I saw each one eat.

The study you cited is 3 years old, based on panthers that come from madagascar not tested for Veileds that are from Saudi Arabia and Yemen and the 5.0 was the "best at the time of the bulbs tetsed" that is why they are continuing to do test after test and create better bulbs.

Panthers and veileds need different basking temps, humidity etc, Veileds are from the Chamaeleo Genius while Panthers are from the Furcifer Genus.

Wendy,

I hardly consider the photos you posted to be adequate vegetation for chameleons under any circumstances but the point of my statement was that your light choice for that enclosure was poor based on the most recent and relevant scientific studies. I'm happy you at least only kept them in that setup for 3 days and only had that light on one side but that doesn't change that there are significantly safer setups that you could have easily used without providing a potentially detrimental situation to the babies.

Yes, I'm WELL aware of where panthers and veileds come from and that they are from different genera. I would, however, disagree that the study is not extremely relevant and that the findings wouldn't probably be close to identicle if conducted on veileds. Also, my information on the UV wave lengths and D3 steriods is general information over reptiles, not limited to chameleons. No similar studies have been done on this bulb and the indications from studies that have been done point toward a need for caution. If you want to argue about your desire to be careless, go ahead but I don't see the point of you doing so. I'm simply recommending that you not be careless with your chameleons as other threads have shown other animals have fallen to.

Chris

I had 8 at a time in a 20 gallon high til they ate which was for 1-3 days so I did what I thought was best with more than 100 plant leaves to eat, hide under, climb on etc. Thats alot of vegetation for 8 2.75" chams.

I bought the bulb rated for a more natual value of UVB to UVA the 5.0 has 5% UVB to 30% UVA which is not as natural as the 10 with 10% UVB and 30% UVA.

OK guys here is the bottom line. None of us have done these experiments and none of us are qualified to make "scientific" decissions other than what has worked for us in the past. I was told MV bulbs were horrible and my Veild is now 4 yrs old and very healthy. I went against the norm and opted for the tech out on the market and it was a sucess. That being said lets look at some numbers and you make your own choices.

Lets think about your chams behaviour inside under a 5.0 bulb and out side at 12 noon. I dont know about you but I see a huge huge difference and like wise I see a huge difference with better UV rated bulbs.

AT 12 noon just about anywhere in the US on avg the UV output of the sun is about 150 microwatts/cm2. My bulb emitts 140 microwatts/cm2 at 12 inches. When my chams are out doors they come to the surface here and there through out the day to bask in the direct sun. This has been repeated many many many times in books as being perhaps the best no nonsense method for raising a healthy cham. All researchers that I have read suggest some level of outdoor exposure to ensure good health. Do not be an idiot and subject your cham to direct UV exposure at these levels 12 hrs a day with no where to run and you wont have a problem.

Based on pure non questinalble data, not hypothesized research, those who use a weak bulb like the 5.0 are altering nature more drastically and that is not arguable in the least. What this bulb emitts and what the sun do are completely on the opposite ends of the scale.

Now based on my set up it best replicates outdoor lighting in that the levels of UV are on the money and there are plenty of shady spots down the 6ft of tree to shelter themselves. My UV light is on the top back edge of the cage where there is a spot for only UV exposure, basking area from the halogen bulb of 85-95 deg, and a middle of the road area where the temps are about 80-85 and there is still some UV exposure. This is all at the top of the cage and the cham still has 95 percent of the cage to roam away from the UV and the basking spot. Look at my pics and you will better understand what I am describing.
I can not understand the thinking that equal levels of sun exposure are horrible and going to give chams tumors unless you stick them in a cage with no where to run and the bulb 5 inches away. Common sense and good practice seems to be the best bet for me and that is what I intend to go with.
Dragonflys go on and use your lamp it is very nice and well worth the money so do not freak out. Take some ideas from a set up like mine that use this type of bulb, or similar, and have fun. There are some people that freak out way to much on this stuff and will not tolerate new tech and base their ideas and arguments on what they have read from some internet site.

I do not aim to discredit anyone here and there is always someone that is bigger bader or knows more in the world. I am not this person and I love learning new ideas but this one I can not figure out.

Chris I followed the set up information on your site except that the author said to use a 2.0 bulb 2-3" up which is a poor choice as of your study cited and I used the better 10.0 and I used a larger tank (24 wide, 17 tall, 12 deep instead of the recommended 24 12 12) to give the babies more room and vegetation, with my larger cage and higher rated bulb I had it 10" above instead of 2" as the article states to make up for the higher rated bulb.

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year200...rst_weeks.html

Jack I agree, you can only do what you think is the best alternative based on what has worked best for you and other breeders you have personally talked to and I use the MV on my larger 6x3x3' cage too.

There is not alot of good validated information online and a lot what is there is not always true for every keeper or best in all areas and uses so all you can do is whats worked for you and others you trust in the past.

I made personal phone calls to breeders that helped me get my breeders, get them mated, get the eggs hatched etc. I didn;t jsut go buy a couple of veileds and have at it.

I went with their experience, I did choose the 10.0 bulb over the 5.0 since most were using smaller set ups with a 5.0 much much closer or using much larger set ups with a MV.

There is an extensive article on Chris' site that goes into a lot of technical information but no where does it state what bulb and at what distance to use it.
http://www.chameleonnews.com/lighting1.html