need info,recommendations or encouragement

Originally Posted by hhmoore

lol - snake's don't have a gag reflex...
(keep in mind that their means of ingesting food is quite a bit different than that of mammals; and that their glottis is well forward of their esophagus so they can eat without "choking")
That doesn't mean it is necessarily easy to push something down their throat, if they don't want it. They can, and will, tighten up, twist around, and attempt to expel whatever foreign body you are trying to place.

You are right, "want to gag" and "puke" were poor choices of words, "attempt to expel" and "regurgitate" are more accurate. The point is still the same, a sudden belly full of food can come right back up on you, regardless of whether it's technically "regurgitation" or "vomiting".

I had posted a vid tubing medication (and injecting) one of my boas when she was sick, not sure if it will be useful at all to you, but here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpFsC7xOAyE

I also tube fed her for months in hopes she would recover (I tubed organic chicken baby food per my vet's instructions). I won't go into her whole story here (I posted about it in the boa forum I believe) but I did end up making the decision to euthanize her for necropsy as her condition was not improving.
I'm wishing you both the best of luck.

Originally Posted by yeloowtang

thanks for the reply Lupine,

For now , the redness is looking m better, scales look as if they dried up some on the body..
Another Vet on a forum mentioned a same study as the one you read, where baytril may still be effective even if injected lower, but nothing confirmed as well.. so as you said, most will still play safe..

vet did not suspect any viruses for now and did not feel a blood test was neccessary as of yet. we did the stool sample testing because when the sent gland prolapse i found blood in her stool..

as for the force feeding, i'm intregued now... i was under the impression that tube feeding would create less stress and less chances of just spitting the rat back out,just slide the tube down and inject the mix, but it makes sense..

i had tried to force feed a smaller prey item but did not want to stress her more, her feeding response did not kick in and she kept trying to avoid it being put in her mouth..
i will try again with something really smaller like a rat pup to start with..

thanks for the suggestion.

Why would your vet feel bloodwork is not necessary yet? Nothing bad will come out of running bloodwork regardless of the signs/symptoms of the patient, bloodwork will rule out sooo many different pathogens that could be the culprit, or at least give clues to what might be happening. Just coming from experience ive found bloodwork to be always considered.

Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I had posted a vid tubing medication (and injecting) one of my boas when she was sick, not sure if it will be useful at all to you, but here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpFsC7xOAyE

Thanks for posting a video, I never thought to suggest looking on youtube. I have however, never tried to tube feed a snake as flaccid (for lack of a better word) as the one in your video. I have always experienced them fighting back, sometimes enough to die, tho fortunately I've only had to tube snakes a few times in my career!
One thing I feel I need to point out for future reference and others who learn from your video, is that at least from watching the video, the way you were administering the Metronidazole, you could not have been getting the entire dose in the snake, as well as you would have been pushing a tube-full of air in first (not sure how a snake handles that), then when the plunger is fully depressed, there's a few mL's left in the tube, probably a significant amount with medication. You should be pushing the med into the tube until it reaches the tip before introducing the tube into the snake, then after administering, flush the tube with the liquid food if you're feeding too, or the right amount of water to push the rest of the med thru (you'd measure beforehand how much water is needed for the size of tube you're using, so the snake actually gets very little if any water, it just acts as a way to push the med remaining in the tube into the snake's gut).

Originally Posted by hadenglock

Why would your vet feel bloodwork is not necessary yet? Nothing bad will come out of running bloodwork regardless of the signs/symptoms of the patient, bloodwork will rule out sooo many different pathogens that could be the culprit, or at least give clues to what might be happening. Just coming from experience ive found bloodwork to be always considered.

I'm curious what reptile pathogens you've had identified thru bloodwork at your vet. The Bloodwork done at the veterinary hospital does not identify specific pathogens (except the snap tests, of which there are few, and none for reptiles). The two components of what is referred to as "bloodwork" are (1)the CBC- Complete Blood Count, for which there is far less known about reptiles than mammals. Values tested for in reptiles are red and white blood cell counts and wbc type ratios, which cannot be tested for on a machine, it must be done manually for reptiles by someone trained to do so (unless there's a new device out there I don't know about); and (2) Chemistries- which indicate mostly organ function. There are very few chemistries run on reptiles because of the lack of information on them. Primarily, the values used for snakes are Blood Glucose, Uric Acid, Calcium, Phosphorus, Electrolytes (Sodium, Potassium and Chloride) and Plasma Protein, and sometimes Bile Acids. Mostly these values are only helpful in diagnosing dehydration and/or kidney function, and Bile Acids indicate liver function.

To the OP- the limited information from reptile bloodwork may be the reason your vet is not in a hurry to do it. The CBC could tell you what you already know- your snake has an infection, and the Chemistries may shed some light on the snake's overall health. Having this information could help you decide whether to keep trying to treat or euthanize based on what you're up against in term of organ function/failure. It is likely that your vet will have to send the blood sample out to a laboratory, as most vets don't have equipment capable of reading reptile blood, and the wbc differential would have to be done by hand. If you can afford it, and your vet knows how to interpret the results, it can't hurt to have it done, as long as the trip and restraint doesn't stress her out too much. It can always serve as a baseline to compare with future testing.

Originally Posted by Lupine

Thanks for posting a video, I never thought to suggest looking on youtube. I have however, never tried to tube feed a snake as flaccid (for lack of a better word) as the one in your video. I have always experienced them fighting back, sometimes enough to die, tho fortunately I've only had to tube snakes a few times in my career!
One thing I feel I need to point out for future reference and others who learn from your video, is that at least from watching the video, the way you were administering the Metronidazole, you could not have been getting the entire dose in the snake, as well as you would have been pushing a tube-full of air in first (not sure how a snake handles that), then when the plunger is fully depressed, there's a few mL's left in the tube, probably a significant amount with medication. You should be pushing the med into the tube until it reaches the tip before introducing the tube into the snake, then after administering, flush the tube with the liquid food if you're feeding too, or the right amount of water to push the rest of the med thru (you'd measure beforehand how much water is needed for the size of tube you're using, so the snake actually gets very little if any water, it just acts as a way to push the med remaining in the tube into the snake's gut).




I'm curious what reptile pathogens you've had identified thru bloodwork at your vet. The Bloodwork done at the veterinary hospital does not identify specific pathogens (except the snap tests, of which there are few, and none for reptiles). The two components of what is referred to as "bloodwork" are (1)the CBC- Complete Blood Count, for which there is far less known about reptiles than mammals. Values tested for in reptiles are red and white blood cell counts and wbc type ratios, which cannot be tested for on a machine, it must be done manually for reptiles by someone trained to do so (unless there's a new device out there I don't know about); and (2) Chemistries- which indicate mostly organ function. There are very few chemistries run on reptiles because of the lack of information on them. Primarily, the values used for snakes are Blood Glucose, Uric Acid, Calcium, Phosphorus, Electrolytes (Sodium, Potassium and Chloride) and Plasma Protein, and sometimes Bile Acids. Mostly these values are only helpful in diagnosing dehydration and/or kidney function, and Bile Acids indicate liver function.

To the OP- the limited information from reptile bloodwork may be the reason your vet is not in a hurry to do it. The CBC could tell you what you already know- your snake has an infection, and the Chemistries may shed some light on the snake's overall health. Having this information could help you decide whether to keep trying to treat or euthanize based on what you're up against in term of organ function/failure. It is likely that your vet will have to send the blood sample out to a laboratory, as most vets don't have equipment capable of reading reptile blood, and the wbc differential would have to be done by hand. If you can afford it, and your vet knows how to interpret the results, it can't hurt to have it done, as long as the trip and restraint doesn't stress her out too much. It can always serve as a baseline to compare with future testing.

The bloodwork we run in house is mostly used to help give clues as to what might be causing the problem, Other than that we send out bloodwork and biopsies to the lab, there have been so many advances in the last decade in viral study with reptiles, and it also depends on who you send it out to and who your vet works with

Originally Posted by hadenglock

The bloodwork we run in house is mostly used to help give clues as to what might be causing the problem, Other than that we send out bloodwork and biopsies to the lab, there have been so many advances in the last decade in viral study with reptiles, and it also depends on who you send it out to and who your vet works with

I don't understand this reply. You just summed up what I had said in reply to your previous statement "...bloodwork will rule out sooo many different pathogens that could be the culprit...". I am aware there are many major independent and university labs, some of which run things others don't. It sounds like you work for a vet who specializes in exotics (?) and you seem to know more about the reptile pathogen tests available than I do, so please enlighten us on what's out there, particularly with advances in treating these viral infections.

If you have to choose between force feeding whole prey and tube feeding, I would say that tube feeding is the less stressful of the two. The tube diameter is small enough to feed in easily - just make sure the outside is lubricated. A 16 french size works well for ball pythons. Use a section of empty pen tube, and open the snake's mouth and place the tube inside the long way - so the holes are front to back. You can then hold the snake's mouth shut over the pen tube, and you have an opening to feed the feeding tube through. It's easier than trying to hold the mouth open. Try to straighten out the snake as you feed in the tube. I would do very small meals at first.

Also, since the glottis opening is in the mouth, not the throat, it would be extremely hard to accidentally put the tube down the trachea.

For viral testing, the University of Florida now has a blood test for exposure to paramyxovirus.
http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...nfections/opm/

Originally Posted by April Homich

...Also, since the glottis opening is in the mouth, not the throat, it would be extremely hard to accidentally put the tube down the trachea.

Actually snakes are intubated for anesthesia thru the glottis as well. It is harder to get into the trach most of the time, however sometimes it just wants to go that way. This video shows intubation. Note the length of the trach tube. Also note that the tech is holding the trach tube to the right, as the trachea lies to the right of the esophagus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84NrlU5WcB8.

This video shows force feeding a rodent. I like this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmuxLsMboJE.

This video was the only one I found besides the one already posted in this thread. Note the maker of the vid added later that Gatorade is NOT GOOD. I also dont see the point of added liquid, seeing that it dilutes the nutritional value per the amount of food being introduced. The food he was using (Hill's a/d) is smooth enough to go thru a 10 Fr or bigger tube undiluted. The reason I'm posting a link to this video is to demonstrate the length of the feeding tube the guy uses on the first (smaller) snake. It is of appropriate length IMO. Then he uses the SAME tube, uncleaned, on the next snake- hope there's no transmissible diseases there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjIkufAZ0A8.

Here's a drawing I found via google image search, that should also help (credit PetEducation.com) Note that it is a ventral (belly) view. You'll see as I stated in an earlier post (I think), the trachea is much shorter than the esophagus.

I realize that you are trying to be helpful; but something isn't translating well.
Of course snakes are intubated through the glottis - though I'm not sure why the "as well" was included (because intubation involves a tube being passed through the glottis, regardless of species)...April's statement was that the glottic opening is in the mouth, not throat; the point being that the glottis is easily viewed, and it is a simple measure to make sure the feeding tube doesn't go there. Because of the location of the glottic opening in snakes, there really isn't an acceptable excuse for "accidentally" putting a feeding tube there. It is no more involved than looking, and making sure it goes where it is supposed to.

The trachea is located to the right of the esophagus

I'm sorry - what? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are trying to say...the opening for the esophagus is at the back of the throat. Passing an endotracheal tube through the snake's glottis - which is found further forward in the mouth - ensures that it will enter the trachea (unless it is too large, or too short). The esophagus doesn't even come into play.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

I realize that you are trying to be helpful; but something isn't translating well.
Of course snakes are intubated through the glottis - though I'm not sure why the "as well" was included (because intubation involves a tube being passed through the glottis, regardless of species)...April's statement was that the glottic opening is in the mouth, not throat; the point being that the glottis is easily viewed, and it is a simple measure to make sure the feeding tube doesn't go there. Because of the location of the glottic opening in snakes, there really isn't an acceptable excuse for "accidentally" putting a feeding tube there. It is no more involved than looking, and making sure it goes where it is supposed to.

I'm sorry - what? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are trying to say...the opening for the esophagus is at the back of the throat. Passing an endotracheal tube through the snake's glottis - which is found further forward in the mouth - ensures that it will enter the trachea (unless it is too large, or too short). The esophagus doesn't even come into play.

I guess I'm making too big a production out of trying to explain a statement I made earlier intended to help the unexperienced. Sure, it should be clear and easy to put the tube in the right place especially on a snake the size of a ball, I was delving too deep, forgive me, didn't mean to confuse. The reason I went into it in the first place, is in my work, I see a lot of home medicating/treating accidents/actions there is no excuse for, including, yes- feeding into the trach which is of course fatal, this is why I mentioned it in the first place. If people didn't do it, it wouldn't have occurred to me to mention it. The mention of the trach being on the right and esoph on the left (posterior to their openings) was simply to illustrate that it requires working it to the right to get into the trach. To anyone well versed in snake anatomy (or maybe anyone with a tiny bit of intelligence) this whole thing seems pretty easy, tho I never had the luck of a totally motionless snake making it easy in regard to restraint, but I have seen a few people screw up and do stupid things, especially with the wrong size/type of tube, hence my over-explaining things, and unfortunately poorly at that. I shall not go on anymore, as I see am not being helpful. Hopefully the videos I posted will help someone in the future, where my yammering has not. I've never been good at verbalizing things.