Selling unhealthy wild caught animals at shows...

There is a discussion going on on another forum regarding the selling of freshly imported reptiles to the general public at shows. I posted my opinion and several people disagreed with me (I believe they are just trying to defend the shows in question at all costs&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>. Here is the link to the thread in question:
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Thanks guys.

Kelli,

I read the thread you were refering to on the discussion forum, and all I can say is WOW. &nbsp;Who is this randal guy anyway?

As far as your question, &nbsp;No, I don't think sick animals should be allowed at shows, or anywhere for that matter, but what kind of proof are you going to require? &nbsp;A vets bill of health? &nbsp;a physical exam of all animals on display? &nbsp;Proof of LTC? &nbsp;its hard to say.

It seems to me that this particular issue was started by someone who had no business buying the animal he did. &nbsp;It sounds like the vendor hid nothing. &nbsp;He said they were recent imports, he said he knew nothing about them (I assume he meant those particular animals and not the species in general since he has been selling them for years) &nbsp;Sounds like somebody wanted to save a few bucks and got in over his head . &nbsp;He didn't even contact the vendor about the problem. There are lots of animals that I do not think should be sold to the general public (at expos, at shops, at flea markets etc.) that is why I don't sell them. &nbsp;Unfortunately, as long as no laws are being broken (and even that is not a deterant to some people) there will be people who will sell anything to anyone no questions asked as long as the money is there. &nbsp;On the flip side, as long as there is a buck or two to be saved there are always going to be people who will buy from the questionable dealers without asking the proper questions . &nbsp;It takes both to make the cycle complete.

Keep up your eduction efforts but remember, not all WC are neccessarily bad.

Steve Schindler
Tropical Oasis

I think it goes w/o saying that it's wrong to sell sick animals w/o letting the buyer know what they are getting into. &nbsp;I believe in complete honesty up front, even if that honesty costs me a sale. &nbsp;However, once you decide to buy, especially if you were warned about a potential problem, I assume NO responibility. &nbsp;I will still answer all your questions and help you in any way I can, but if you bougth an imported animal that I warned you about, don't whine and cry when it croaks.
&nbsp;The question that will pop into some of your heads right now is: well, why even sell an animal your not sure about? &nbsp;The answer: &nbsp;I won't sell ANYTHING that I know is in bad shape. &nbsp;I will sell imported animals (even recent imports) because there is a large demand for those species, and in most cases many of those imported animals do well in captivity. &nbsp;But, I always tell people they are imports.
&nbsp;The question I have is this: &nbsp;what responsibility does the customer have, if any? &nbsp;Shouldn't the customer have some clue as to what they are getting themselves and the animal into? &nbsp;And do their complaints really have any merit if they bought an animal as difficult as a chondro to take care of, w/o any knowledge of how to do so?

Think about it like this if you buy software for your computer and didn't read the requirments and when you get home open the software up and then notice it doesn't work on your computer. The store doesn't care if it is useless to you. You open the package you are now stuck with it. So read the small print always. Just a thought

wow. &nbsp;

***disclaimer*--the following statement is not meant to single out any individual, vendor, or show--it is intended as an opinion about shows and philosophy of sales in general***

i think the point in this case is not about a particular individual who had a problem with a particular vender...the real issue seems to be the regulation of shows. &nbsp;we all have to remember that shows are advertised to the public and the public is not always (and usually is not) very educated about reptiles. &nbsp;i have seen so many sickly animals get sold to 12 year old kids--a death sentence for that animal, and heartbreak for the kid. &nbsp;should the promoters be responsible for regulating a show? &nbsp;I would think so. &nbsp;true, you dont want to lose vendors or make for a &quot;boring&quot; show, but do you really want a 12 year old girl going home with an emaciated import just picked up from the airport--no meds,no care sheet or nothing? &nbsp;Especially with the HSUS and others on our backs, we should really be careful. &nbsp;Not to mention, dont we care about the animals we sell and promote, our reputations, or our customers anymore?

whether or not this particular case is valid (I was not there, didnt see the animal), I know that these things go on, and much worse. &nbsp;And as a vendor, it can be scarey. &nbsp;I have heard a lot of terrible stories (rumors???) about venders having problems due to wc vendor neighbors. &nbsp;i once got a call the day after a show i did to warn me about how infested with mites the table next to mine was--everyone who bought from this vendor had snakes full of mites and ticks--and this guy was taking his snakes out, handling them, etc etc. &nbsp;i was just thankful that i didnt have any snakes at that show and was strict about hand sanitizer. &nbsp;

i understand where you are coming from Kelli. &nbsp;I dont think you are anti wild caught (steve works at the zoo)--it is a matter of better standards and regulation by the promoters. &nbsp;
i thought the texas shows were supposed to be captive bred only?--or at least started off that way. &nbsp;i see lots of shows advertised that way, and then tons of wc animals are allowed in. &nbsp;isnt that misleading for the general public? &nbsp;why not just be honest in the advertising? &nbsp;what about the poor kid who buys a frilled dragon, assuming that it is cb since the show is &quot;cb only&quot; and then runs into a ton of problems with parasites and acclimation? &nbsp;and of course they buy the import because it is $125 vs the real cb animal being sold for $200, because they are both supposed to be cb animals. &nbsp;not to mention, there are people in the general public that go to cb only shows because of ethical/moral/conservation stances--then they wind up buying an import without knowing? &nbsp;in this case i feel that it is the promoters fault for false advertising and/or not enforcing their rules. &nbsp;by now it seems almost &quot;understood&quot; by vendors that &quot;cb only&quot; doesnt REALLY mean &quot;cb only&quot;--bring whatever you want.

btw, could you post more info about this new show being talked about?

it is a difficult question to know how to set the standards for wc animals, but it should be addressed. &nbsp;maybe not a vet bill of health, but a specific period of observation or quarentine before selling? &nbsp;and certainly no animals with outward issues such as dehydration, emaciation, etc. &nbsp;or, dealers should be able to recognize signs that the general public does not. &nbsp;part of the risk and responsibility of the dealer for working with fresh imports should be dealing with the need to separate out and care for ones that dont look as good--not passing that burden off to an unknowing consumer before the signs are too apparent. none of this &quot;not my fault&quot; bit because it is a fresh import. i dont know, perhaps this would make for an interesting new thread.

my lovely opinion,
Dana

I agree with Kelli 110%. First off, the Texas shows that are in question are advertised as &quot;cb&quot; only shows. It has never been captive breed only. Freshly imports have no business at a show. There will come a time when we no longer will be allowed to own reptiles. The all mighty dollar comes first to so many WC dealers. I have purchased many WC animals but I also have the knowledge as to what they may need once I get them home. I do not believe that all WC animals be stopped from being sold at shows BUT that animal should be healthy first before being sold. I have seen too many people that have bought unhealthy animals that have died. Well, guess what, we just lost that person to a sell of a healthy one. More times then not, they are turned away from reptiles and the ones selling healthy ones have just lost out. Now the one selling healthy animals, whether cb or wc, have to work twice as hard to sell their animals. &nbsp;The public also needs to stop the impulse buying, they need to know what they are buying and who they are buying from and we can help them do this by asking if they really know what they are getting into and the extra care that is involved. After that, they are on their own. At least we warned them. We would not have the variety of animals that we have if it was not for wc BUT lets be honest about what we are selling. It is not fair to the public and also not fair to the dealers and vendors who think more of the LIFE that is their hands then the all mighty dollar. What we need to realize first is that it is a LIFE !!! 90% of the vendors and dealers think about that life first. Reputation is all that one has, after that is gone, you have nothing left. It does take extra work to rehab an animal that is wc but the dealer knows this before he buys it. If he/she does nothing for the animal before pawning it off on a customer, that is wrong. Most of the public does not know much about reptiles and it is our job to educate them. Most do not know what they are getting into and need our help.
&nbsp;Thank goodness there are alot more good guys out there then bad ones but as a customer that is buying for the first time, they know no different. Only healthy ones should be in the public to sell. If the dealer does not want to take the extra time rehabilitating or does not have the room to house it until it is healthy, then I say they should not have bought it in the first place.
Thanks for listening
Irene Olier

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate hearing the opinions of others on this matter, it helps me see it from a different point of view.

One complaint I have about these shows is that the promoters refuse to follow their own rules. Here are some excerpts from the Vendor Rules and Application sent out to prospective vendors for the local expo:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PROHIBITED ANIMALS: spam_No venomous reptiles will be allowed in the show for sale, no exceptions. spam_From time to time we allow venomous
displays. spam_They are only allowed with special permission from the promoters. spam_No iguanas may be sold at the expo. spam_No unhealthy animals
may be brought into the expo.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

This is the main problem, many of the vendors at the show are brokers that pick up their order of WC animals at the airport on Froday night and unpack the boxes the next morning at the show, offering them for sale without knowing a thing about them (if they are feeding, if they have mites, if the harbor internal parasites, etc.).



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">CAPTIVE-BRED versus IMPORT/WILD-CAUGHT. spam_The purpose of the Expos is to promote captive breeding. spam_However, occasionally we
will allow certain imported or wild-caught animals. spam_The vendor must state on the sold packaging whether the animal is wild-caught,
import or captive bred. spam_Vendor agrees to take full responsibility for any problems which may arise from the sale of their animals. spam_All
animals sold at this expo must be in good health and spam_feeding. spam_Any attempt to deceive the public as to origin of stock, diseases or
feeding problems, will result in expulsion from the expo and the vendor will not be invited back. spam_Any animals showing signs of
malnourishment or external parasites must be removed from the expo immediately. spam_Security personnel will help you escort your animals
out of the expo. spam_Security and expo staff decisions are final. spam_
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Sadly, the purpose of the Expo is not to promote captive breeding anymore. It is to put money into the promotors pockets. The shows have way more imports than captive born now, and many of the breeders (including HISS) that used to vend at the shows have stopped going. I can assure you that as far as the &quot;packaging&quot; rule, it is not happening. Packages/receipts are not being labeled as &quot;wild caught&quot; and in some cases customers are lied to about the origin of an animal they are buying. Sickly animals are being sold at these shows, most are WC's that are fresh imports and are loaded with internal parasites and do not feed. It is not fair for the animal or the customer, the animal will either end up dying or being very ill and the customer will end up with a very high vet bill.

What if we were talking about dogs, cats or horses here? I believe there would be a much bigger outcry and more people protesting against these practices if we were. Reptiles and amphibians are living, breathing creatures and deserve to be treated as such and given the respect that every living creature deserves.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">CITY, STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS. spam_No animals may be sold or displayed that are in violation of any city, state or
federal regulations or laws. spam_NO EXCEPTIONS. spam_Anyone caught bringing these animals to the expo will have them removed immediately
from the expo by our Security personnel. spam_ Vendors will not be allowed to keep them under their tables. spam_Security and expo staff decisions
are final. spam_ </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Here again, rules are not being followed! A well known python breeder is a regular vendor at the local expo. He happens to sell Nile Crocodiles and has them on his table at every show. Usually they will be on the table marked with a price for several hours on Saturday. I guess so many people complain about it that he is told to put a &quot;For Display Only&quot; label on the deli cups and is allowed to keep them on his table. It is illegal in the city that the expos are held in to possess these animals. I personally cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would think it is okay to sell Nile Crocodiles to anyone with the $200 to buy one! Seems pretty crazy to me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only imports we will allow at our shows will be those that are not being bred in the U.S.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Here is yet another one of the rules for this show that is not being followed. Green Tree Pythons, uromastyx, several chameleon species, blood pythons, emerald tree boas, fat tail geckos, the list goes on.. All are being reproduced here in the US in captivity.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">VENDOR RESPONSIBILITY - Vendors must act responsibly in the sales of any animals that are questionable or unacceptable as pets,
especially to those under the age of 18. spam_ Vendor must disclose the temperament that any animal may have now, or as it grows.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

See above about Nile Crocs.

These are the main gripes I have about these shows. I am not against import animals (we have some in our own collection). I am against people selling sick animals. All I am doing is attempting to make people more aware of all this.

CAVEAT EMPTOR two words from Roman times that are just as applicable today as they were thousands of years ago. Let the Buyer Beware!

Do not get me wrong, I do not advocate selling sick or parasitized snakes; but then again I am not for a ban on W/C either. I think W/C is ok with regulations and limits, and even that W/C are sometimes preferable to C/B, but that is another thread for another time.

The point that many (but not all) seem to be missing (although it is painfully obvious) is that the guy who bought the snakes was even more irresponsible than the seller. The seller according to the buyer told him straight out that they were W/C and that he did not know about their condition. Then the seller buys them and later has the nerve to complain that they were INFESTED (really badly) with mites. Did he even pick up the snake to look at it, and then diid he examine his own hands for mites. That is simply one of the rules about responsible snake buying. You check it out for OBVIOUS problems and if there are any - do not buy &nbsp;the snake! I can find no pity for a guy like this, and actually am rather miffed that he would bother anyone with such a post especially since he seems to be look for sympathy. You know he can find sympathy in the dictionary somewhere between Sh-- and syphillus, but he cannot find it in me. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Kelli

I am not familiar with the show(s) or promoters you are refering to but if the rules you have posted are the rules as specified in the expo regulations (and I hve no reason to believe they are not) then I would stay as far away from this show and it promoters as I could. &nbsp;You are right in saying that it has evolved into a money making venture and nothing more. Not that there is anything wrong with making money on a show you are promoting, but if you are going to put rules in place simply as windowdressing that is terrible. &nbsp;I could see where breeders would get ticked of thinking they were going to a show highlighting CB and find diseased, parasitized, crap on the table next to you. &nbsp;

The only frequently held swap I am familiar with has both &nbsp;Healthy CB and WC crap (actually has some decent WC stuff on occasion and even some pretty poor CB stuff) but it happens twice a month and it is very busy. &nbsp;Very profitable for the promoter too I would think. &nbsp;Whenever there is a decent CB only show around, most of what I hear is people complaining that &nbsp;1. &nbsp;The prices were too high. &nbsp;2. &nbsp;There was nothing interesting there. &nbsp;3. (from the vendors) there was no one there. &nbsp;Sometimes I agree with #1 but you have to compare apples to apples. &nbsp;As far as #2 if by interesting you mean some rare animal that no one ever sees but will certainly die within a couple of weeks,(read horned lizards and flying dragons among other things) then yes I agree with you. &nbsp;and #3, &nbsp;good shows take time to develope. &nbsp;Maybe the promoter didn't advertise like he should have but if you don't give them a second or third chance (with some suggestions) the show will never get off the ground.

Steve Schindler

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
HI!
I AND MY PARTNER, SHANLYN DO THESE SHOWS PUT ON BY
TEXAS REPTILES (GENESIS). WE HAVE DONE THE TULSA AND
ARLINGTON SHOWS AND HAVE MORE ON SCHEDULE. THE REASON THIS THREAD WAS STARTED ON THE OTHER FORUM IN MY OPINION WAS DUE TO THE FAST THAT THE BUYER DIDNT GET ANY INFO IN REGUARDS TO CONTACTING THE VENDOR (CLAUDE) AFTER THE SHOW. IF THEY HAD, THEN CLAUDE COULD HAVE DONE WHAT EVER WAS NEEDED TO IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THE CUSTOMER WAS SATISFIED.
&nbsp;AS FAR AS THE SHOWS GO, BONNIE AND JAMES DO THEIR
BEST (IMO) TO KEEP WILD CAUGHT IS AT THE SHOWS TO A
MIN. AND OF GOOD QUALITY. &nbsp;THEY GO BY EACH TABLE AND
LOOK AT THE ANIMALS AND IF SOMETHING DOESNT LOOK
UP TO PAR THEY WILL TELL YOU TO REMOVE IT. I HAVE SEEN
THEM TELL PEOPLE &quot;THOSE LOOK TO THIN&quot; AND MAKE THEM
REMOVE THEM FROM THEIR TABLE. &nbsp;WE TOLD BONNIE THAT
WE HAD SOME LONG-TERM WC IN ADDITION TO ALL OUR C.B.B. AND SHE GRILLED US WHAT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE,
HOW LONG WE HAD THEM, HEALTH, ETC....
&nbsp;NOW NOBODY CAN ALWAYS TELL IF SOMETHING HAS INTERNAL PARASITES BY LOOKING SO SOMETHING MIGHT GET
THROUGH THAT BONNIE AND JAMES CANT SEE WITH THE NAKED EYE. HOWEVER, IF THE BUYER DOESNT TAKE THE TIME
TO GET A CARD FROM THE VENDOR OR A CARESHEET (IT IS
MANDATORY AT THESE SHOWS TO HAVE BOTH BUSINESS CARDS AND CARESHEETS) THEN WHAT DOES HE EXPECT THE
VENDOR TO DO IF HE HAS A PROBLEM? PUT ON HIS TELEPATHIC HAT OR WHAT?? AND IF A VENDOR IS WARNED ONCE ABOUT THEIR WC, THE NEXT TIME THEY WILL BE BANNED FROM THE SHOW. I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN TO.
&nbsp;I DONT HAVE ALOT OF SYMPATHY FOR THE GUY WHO STARTED THE THREAD ON THE OTHER FORUM AT ALL AND I
DONT PUT ALOT OF FAITH IN WHAT HIS VET OR WHOEVER TOLD HIM ABOUT THE SNAKE HE BOUGHT. &nbsp;THERE IS NO WAY
THAT THERE WAS A MITE INFESTED, MOUTH ROUTING SNAKE
AT THE SHOW ON A TABLE - NO WAY. &nbsp;MOST ALL VENDORS AT THESE SHOWS ARE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE AND HAPPY TO TALK FOR HOURS ON END WITH YOU ABOUT ANYTHING. AS FAR AS THERE BEING ALOT OF HALF-DEAD WC AT THESE SHOWS I THINK THATS JUST BUNK. BONNIE AND JAMES DO FOLLOW THE RULES THAT THEY HAVE SET FOR THE SHOWS AND DO ALL THEY CAN TO ENFORCE THEM. AND IF YOU EVER HAVE A COMPLAINT ABOUT A VENDOR JUST CALL OR EMAIL THE PROMOTOR AND THEY WILL GIVE YOU THE INFO YOU NEED OR HELP GET IT RESOLVED.
THIS IS ALL FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN MYSELF AND ARE MY OPINIONS. HOPE IT DOESNT TICK ANYONE OFF BUT I THINK
THERES ALOT OF BULL FLYING AROUND HERE.
BUT HEY, THATS JUST IMO.

GOD BLESS TO ALL!
BEN SPARKS@C.R.C.
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