Okeetee corns

As far as I can determine Kathy Love doesn't have a single cornsnake that she can verify is 100% Okeetee locality. If you use her criteria to label a cornsnake as Okeetee then just about 95% of the cornsnakes in captivity could probably be considered true Okeetees. It really irks me when I see all these conversations over on the cornsnake forum on KS where all these newbie collectors talk about their newly acquired Okeetee corn that they just picked up from Kathy. I had to really ask a lot of questions about the origin of her animals to get to the truth before I finally realized that I was going to pass on picking up any of her animals. As far as the difference between her "Classic" and her "Okeetees" I have no clue what she means. Neither is pure Okeetee and that's all I care about.

This is very interesting, and somewhat ironic, especially the last sentence of what John said.
Let's look at a direct quote from page 76 of The Cornsnake Manual by the Loves. The emphasis is mine.

This fact has unfortunately been exploited occasionally to help sell normal, undifferentiated hatchlings, or offspring "diluted" from 'Okeetee' stock crossed to something else, since the Okeetee name has become synonymous with the stunning coloration many collectors seek.

So, unless she does indeed have true okeetees which haven't been outcrossed, then she too is exploiting the name to help sell "offspring 'dilluted' from Okeetee stock crossed with something else," a practice which she referred to as unfortunate.

My unpopular opinion is if you don't have true Okeetees then get some, or else quit seling offspring by that name.

I'm completely open to being wrong in what I have said about Kathy. Sometimes I wonder if there wasn't some kind of communication problem which led to my understanding the situation incorrectly. At other times where I was pretty sure that Kathy has seen the messages where I have invited her to correct me if I am mistaken. To the best of my knowledge she has never tried to. I don't bear her any ill will at all and I can see very clearly that she has a fine collection. But she apparently doesn't have any pure Okeetee stock.

I haven't talked with Kathy about her Okeetees, and do not myself know what her criteria is for using the term.
I was told, after my last post, that she has owned true 100% locality okeetees, and I wouldn't doubt if those, or their offspring still remain in her breeding group. However, unless she has maintained the purity of the line and refrained from crossing at least some of them with any unknown corns, then she, in my opinion, has lost the bloodline.
She may adhere to Rich's usage of the term where if either parent can be traced to the area then they can be called okeetee. I personally disagree with this approach, but they are of course free to call their snakes what they wish.

I would like to see the respected corn breeders dedicate a bit of rack space to some verifiable locality okeetees, but they may not think it a worthy use of space. Perhaps if a greater number of people begin to show interest in this area of cornsnake culture, that might begin to happen in the future.
With the current focus on the creation of new morphs and the enhancment of other traits, it just doesn't seem to be a priority to worry about locality for many.
For my own purposes, I would go straight to Kathy or Rich if I were in the market for most any of the exceptional corns they produce, but when it comes to adding specimens to my locality okeetee project, I simply couldn't consider their animals to be candidates because their criteria aren't as strict as I require to be considered true locality.

Up until two weeks ago I had a 14 year old single corn snake in my collection, my first corn snake, whose parents were taken from the Hunt Club in the 1970's. She was as locality as one could get and except for the thick black blotch borders, was as normal looking as one could get. I could never sell her or her offspring as Okeetee because most people that I have talked to at shows expect a certain look rather than a locality. I have crossed her to bolder colored snakes to get the blotch borders and deep colors that I want. I now sell, and will continue to sell, those snakes that fit my personal criteria as Okeetee phase. I could give a poop about locality, but I don't make any false claims about it either. I have no ill will towards those who maintain pure locality Okeetee corns but, in my opinion, the expectation of the public has been towards color rather than locality. There are plenty of ugly South Carolina corns and the fact that they came from the Okeetee Hunt Club does not make them an Okeetee phase corn in my personal opinion.

I bought a slew of new Okeetees, and wanted to show this one off! W/C male, pretty old now, but still very pretty. Nothing more to add about locality, just got clobbered on the cornsnake.com forums!

I bought a slew of new Okeetees, and wanted to show this one off! W/C male, pretty old now, but still very pretty. Nothing more to add about locality, just got clobbered on the cornsnake.com forums!

That is a truly beautiful animal, Chip! Do you use him for breeding?

I just bought out a friend from the area's collection, but already own two of his progeny from different mothers. He's been in captivity around 12 or 13 years, so I hope I can get a few more good seasons out of him. I'll let you know in August!

I am surprized at how serious this subject has become. I am a definite fan of Okeetees. On one side I think it's good that there are individuals out there that are trying to keep the Okeetee bloodlines pure. But on the other side does it really matter all that much?

Contuned. I have several Okeetees in my collection. Some are standard Okeetees and others are het for Hypo. But by looking at them there is no way you would ever know which one is carring the extra gene for Hypo. i don't even think the best Corn experts out there could even tell them apart. My point being even the very best looking Okeetees out there, could possibly have something extra in it. And what about the new comer to the hobby of cornsnakes. If a kid shows up at a reptile show and wants to get a nice looking Okeetee as his, or her first snake will they even care were it came from. And that it is a "pure Okeetee" as long as it looks good to them, thats really all that matters.