Would you ever have guessed...

Originally Posted by LakesideBoas

Which debunked a boatload of theories about genetics that most likely have a room full of taxonomists somewhere pulling all their hair out about now.

Even if this information isn't followed up by the "professionals" in taxonomy, this simple fact opens new doors and changes thinking for those of us persuing this hobby.

Think about it.

naturally occuring integrades are one thing.... however just because you can breed to animals together does'nt mean you should. you are playing maker.
animals from different areas that need different environmental need or from totally sperate continents... i feel sorry for the animals produced from thee hybrid breedings because who really knows what there needs will be and what the long term effects of the breeding are ? are they sterile? (i sure hope so)

Believe it or not Robin, I too do not subcribe to the mixing of even locales, let alone species, but it has happened and it will continue to happen as long as man is on this planet.

Look at the Boa market. You have people breeding Surinams and Gyanas, BCIs and Hogs...a few more generations of outbreeding these crosses who knows what you'll be buying.

That said, I do not foresee that happening with responsible breeders like New England Reptile. If mixtures like these shake walls and open doors in uderstanding genetics and taxonomy then I do not have a problem with it--as long as these creatures are labeled as what they are--which N.E.R.D. is doing and has done on all their crosses in the past.

I guess I spoke up as I feel this may have been the wrong place to start a responsible hashing of the subject. Look at the classifieds. No-one seems to have a problem with people selling the crosses I have mentioned above or purchasing them and mixing them with yet another locale...it will make your hair stand straight up thinking about that one!

So I guess we are reading the same book, just not on the same page.

trust me i am a total locality freak on my boas... so i do understand that

That said, I do not foresee that happening with responsible breeders like New England Reptile. If mixtures like these shake walls and open doors in uderstanding genetics and taxonomy then I do not have a problem with it--as long as these creatures are labeled as what they are--which N.E.R.D. is doing and has done on all their crosses in the past.

ok so NERD makes em... someone buys one and then sells it well down the road either someone forgets or is just plain lieing and sells it as a new morph of this or that and then joe bloe buys it and breeds this new morph to his already existing pure lines... ok genepool jacked and he sells the offspring as pure...
so we as breeders need to think of the potential down the road... true we know what we may be selling it as but what about the next person? i mean we justify it by using the excuse " as long as it is properly represented as a hybrid, integrade or cross, its ok then" ... so the breed may have the best intentions of properly representing the animal but down the road what happens then? you hear things like" well i can not control what other people do with them after the purchase" but the thing is... you can do not bred them..
i mean if you want to do scintific research in a lab style for taxonomy purpose then save only a couple of eggs OR once hatched cull off the rest or feed them off to another snake that eats snakes. and then by no means lets these animals get out into the publics hands/market.
there is a big difference betwen scientific research and just just breeding them because you can... just to see what you will get and then sell them for a profit... because thats not science that greed (cuz i am sure these hybrids will go for one prety penny)

Originally Posted by robin s.

trust me i am a total locality freak on my boas... so i do understand that

I just had two perfectly normal BCIs, that were sold to me as perfectly normal BCIs three years ago, throw one baby out of 37 that looks suspiciously like a Hog/BCI cross. Where the heck did THAT come from??

I invested three years in these animals and now I am sitting here scratching my head.

I'm keeping it to see what happens once it sheds out a couple more times, but am I dissapionted? You-betcher booty I am!

there is a big difference betwen scientific research and just just breeding them because you can... just to see what you will get and then sell them for a profit... because thats not science that greed (cuz i am sure these hybrids will go for one prety penny)

Unfortunately you are most likely correct about the breeding because you can thing. It's going to happen no matter what we think.

I have never heard of nor seen Kara or Kevin behave in a manner even remotely irresponsible as far as marketing their animals go, so I am not qualified to comment on that one.

Originally Posted by LakesideBoas

I just had two perfectly normal BCIs, that were sold to me as perfectly normal BCIs three years ago, throw one baby out of 37 that looks suspiciously like a Hog/BCI cross. Where the heck did THAT come from??

I invested three years in these animals and now I am sitting here scratching my head.

I'm keeping it to see what happens once it sheds out a couple more times, but am I dissapionted? You-betcher booty I am!.

If it is what it seems it may be, then you are proving Robin's point. Even if it is not, the fact that one has to even wonder if their lines are f'd up is why making mutts just because you can, sucks, and also proves Robins point.

Originally Posted by LakesideBoas

I have never heard of nor seen Kara or Kevin behave in a manner even remotely irresponsible as far as marketing their animals go, so I am not qualified to comment on that one.

I don't think anybody is going to question their ethics when it comes to representing the animals (the breeding itself may be another story), but once it leaves their hands, whos to say what will happen? If your BCIs lines are messed up, it may have been because a perfectly "ethical" person 'crossed' them, and sold them. Now who knows how many generations and breeders have they gone through and they are now in your hands possibly "spoiled".

Oh, believe me, I know exactly where you are coming from. Fortunately I am responsible breeder who is most likely going to cull all other offspring if this abherrent Boa does not look to be a Hypo of some sort after consultation with a breeder I know and trust who's been doing this much longer than I have!

Are they taking up space and using resources better used elsewhere? You betcha. Could I sell them and make something on my loss? Again, you betcha. Could I sleep at night knowing I misrepresented something to an ignorant public? Not on your life.

I bred these to sell at my shop as pet quality Boas, but I can not in all good conscience sell them to anyone who may breed them in the future and they(the parents) will never be bred by me again. They are now my pets, which they were to begin with.

To reiterate, the crosses that I have seen that N.E.R.D. has produced (this one, the Super Ball) can not be mistaken for anything but what they are. They look like neither parent and only an imbecile would market them as anything but what they are. I find neither Kara nor Kevin imbecilic.

what i wanna know is why are all you people freaking out about this animals seeing as it takes years just for a handful of these python hybrids to be produced as its not as easy as you think, people have to work "HARD" to actually produce these hybrids, its not like pairing a horny male ball python with a horny female ball python. you actually have to test different mediums in teh experiment.

and what about those red tail boas huh? when you think your buying a normal suriname redtail your more then likely getting a cross because most of those bloodlines have a little bit of everything in it, like a hienz 57, and you dont here anyone freaking out about that, you really bascially have to go and capture a red tail for it to be pure. but you buy the crosses everyday and just look the other way and say nothing about it and you yourself are COMMITING A CRIME AGAINST NATURE!!! and then you think to yourself nah not me i hate hybrids. well 2 differernt subspecies being crossed is still hybridization buddy, and like you say "the only good hybrid is no hybrids" well more then half your redtail population are muts, but i dont care, and nither does the next person or the next person, it is inevitable. once snakes came into our control there was no doubt in anyones mind that someone wasnt gonna try to have fun with it and see what they are there snakes were capable of and push potential in the animals.

change is good. end

Originally Posted by LakesideBoas

To reiterate, the crosses that I have seen that N.E.R.D. has produced (this one, the Super Ball) can not be mistaken for anything but what they are. They look like neither parent and only an imbecile would market them as anything but what they are. I find neither Kara nor Kevin imbecilic.

this is vary true, some of these animals arent incognito most hybrids look like nither of the parents. they may share some features but its evident that what you have isnt pure. unless like alot of you are saying the are misrepresented, which i myself would not condone or want anyone else to condone, because then they dont really appreciate them for what they are and just want to make a qucik buck off some kid at a show. thats wrong, but hybrids arent.

Very cool.......... Congrat's !