what happens to a pyro when you shake in a little kingcorn?

Holly crap this is GREAT READING!

It's like this for me:

1) Hybrid, this has a negative effect on people in reptiles. It doesn't just effect the people wanting to do it.

2) Pure animals, these have no poor effect on any people in the reptile hobby.

My point is, people who make hybrids weather honest or not are effected by all people breeding them.

People breeding hybrids have RUNED the La Pines, albino great plains, albino bairds, albino alterna and countless other snakes for everybody who enjoyed them and the fact that they were amazing as pure animals (or with the alterna will never be able to have an honest albino).

Those puriest people have done nothing to effect you breeding hybrids. I'm not going to say it's our right to know our animals are pure but this comes down to just that. If what you're doing hadden't already had a VERY NEGITIVE EFFECT ON THE HOBBY there would be no need for this post.

Fact of the matter is that it has, it will in the future and if not you then by many other breeders that are not being as careful as they should be.

I will say that the hobby is all very unnatural, breeding snakes that is. About the best you could do to stay pure is find two snakes mating under a log in the wild and keep them to stay in line with nature. However if you were to breed the same snakes the following year it would be unnatural as I'm sure those two wouldn't have mated again.

Of course there are albinos, anery and hypos common in some wild populations so I'm not saying the gene pool is always so huge the above couldn't happen just that in nature odds would be low.

However, this is doing nothing to alter the animals in a negitive way. In many cases, like the Lampropeltis trangulum campbelli I would doubt more then 20 WC animals have been brought into the Country and we know there are far more then that now. So captive breeding can help an animal.

There is just little argument that hybrids haven't had a negative effect on people and their enjoyment of this hobby. <b>It's hard to respect people who, when in a minority can enjoy something that effects the majority so negatively.</b>

See, I respect the right to makes hybrids, you however don't respect our right to know we have pure animals. When I say you, remember I'm not saying it as in the people who started this thread but those who do it for greedy reasons.

I see hybrids like a virus, they act the same way. Nothing wrong with working with a virus provided you have a controled place to do it like the CDC, without someplace to do it that offers that control you find them spreading and blending into the reptile hobby until you find yourself in a place where you don't know what's what anymore.

If what you're doing hadden't already had a VERY NEGITIVE EFFECT ON THE HOBBY there would be no need for this post.

its been a while since i've visited this thread. must say, i thought it would have been finished by now.

i'm not condoning hybridizing snakes for the purpose of breeding it back and mask its unpure origins. thats dishonest. if i buy a pyro it had better damn well be 100% pyro.

but just for the sake of argument and to reitterate why my collegue posted the picture in the first place...

they're interesting. corndurans, pyrokingkorns, grayband snowcorns.... all of them. its interesting to see what happens when you cross two animals that look different from different locations. i guess you could get a similiar effect from breeding thayeri but they can be hard to care for at times. the hybrid is more a beginers snake. they have hybrid VIGOR which usually makes them easy to breed, easy to feed and bright variable snakes with vivid coloration.

like i said i agree with you all that its wrong to mask the origins of a snake and i would be upset if a snake i purchased was misrepresented but whatcha gonna do? complaining about pyro king corns isn't gonna make your albino red tail locale specific or your rainwater albino or "snow" leopard gecko any more pure than it it is now.

quit trying to point the finger at honest people. there is no reason for someone to take what we have and implement it into a dishonest project where the origin would be masked. they contain NO reccesive genes like albino, hypo or anery.... so what would be the point???

Well jeepers... a very long thread with an awful lot of "blah blah blah" (stuff I just skim through because it's all rehashing of old stuff)

My responses...

1. In my opinion the snakes that began the discussion are beautiful. And this is a FACT. Nobody in the earth can dispute that to me they are beautiful. (seems some people on this thread feel that their opinion of the beauty of an animal is the final say in the matter[/i].

2. I think that there are some interesting arguments on either side of the fence on this one. I don't believe that those who are "against hybridization" are evil and mean and wrong, and I don't feel that way about those who are "for hybridization". I do feel however that it would be incredible if a thread could be started and kept absolutely PURE... as in free from any sort of insult. If you think the animal is ugly, say it is ugly. If you think that the person who bred the animal is an absolute cretin or (to semi-quote The Grinch Who Stole Christmas) with a soul made of garlic, tarantulas and mush... then don't say it. Gosh, that would sure be nice to have a no-insults thread on hybrids. Perhaps I'll try to start one.

Anyway, it's still an interesting discussion... with some fine points half submerged in all the insults and muck.

they contain NO reccesive genes like albino, hypo or anery.... so what would be the point???

actually allow me to correct myself. as of now i breed mainly leopard geckos. i have a few corn snakes, Mojo (the first western hognose i ever got), one of vinnys (diabloboas) abberant boas and i lend mojos pad out to the ladies when jeremiah brings em by. aside from that jeremiah does the snakes for diablo snake farm (including the hybrids of course).

jeremiah does have an albino hybrid but its not going to be getting confused for anything pure ever im sure. he has also informed me he plans to add genetic morphs into his hybrid experiments in the future. but like i said his hybrids will never be mistaken for pure snakes. can anyone even guess what kind of hybrid cross this is?

Sure looks to be of the king/corn influence. IF there's any milksnake it's a small percentage and back a generation or two, I think.

Originally Posted by diablohogs

i have enough ammo onwhy hybridizing is beneficial for species and how some species depend on hybridization for survival but i will open that can of worms later.

chad elmore
Diablo Snake Farm

Regarding the assertion delineated in your quote above, What!? This idea contradicts what we define as a "species". Hybridization contradicts species. Thus your assertion doesn't adhere to logical thought. Can you please clarify your position in this regard and provide specific facts and examples to prove it? Utilyzing your own words; can you open that can of worms now?

Originally Posted by diablohogs

p.s.s. to erin... i wish i had the technology on hand to perform hybridization experiments that way. it seems to me if that technology is available than someone ISN'T DOING THIER JOB! someone needs to do a dna test on all lampropeltis... and the rest of colubridae... and than create a database. SO WE KNOW FOR SURE thier relation to one another. ...

...its time to use techonology and science to iron out all the wrinkles. once we figure out what defines a snake (genetically speaking) we can than define what mutated genes a normal looking snake may be heterozygous for. taking the gamble out of purchasing hets. we would also be able to define linebred traits from genetic traits ( i.g. a snake that was line bred for reduced black vs. a hypomelanistic snake). this subject gets me very excited. lemme know when one of those dna machines goes on sale ( maybe clearance) and i'll buy one.

This is the first I have heard that something along this line is in place for snakes.

Originally Posted by diablohogs

once again. i'm done on this thread. i'm sure i will be accused of being a liar again by our pathetically insulting "friend" because i said that my last post was my final post on this thread. but i'll try not to let it bother me.

chad elmore
Diablo Snake Farm

Is there anyone else, who supports his position, that can clarify his position in this regard...

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablohogs
"i have enough ammo on why hybridizing is beneficial for species and how some species depend on hybridization for survival but i will open that can of worms later".


...and provide specific facts and examples to prove it? Thanks.

Originally Posted by TheGhost

<b>It's hard to respect people who, when in a minority can enjoy something that effects the majority so negatively.</b>

I see hybrids like a virus, they act the same way. Nothing wrong with working with a virus provided you have a controled place to do it like the CDC, without someplace to do it that offers that control you find them spreading and blending into the reptile hobby until you find yourself in a place where you don't know what's what anymore.

Excellent point.