what happens to a pyro when you shake in a little kingcorn?

All that would be proven with the hypothetical Heterodon cross is that you can perhaps produce something which LOOKS LIKE simius, it proves nothing more.
It all boils down to this, ego and the desire to make a buck off the uniformed consumer.

One of the biggest problems in this discussion is that the person who is attempting to debate the issue and performing these hybridizations has no idea about even basic genetics or taxonomy.

When if comes down to it, what use is arguing with someone who doesn't even have the minimal understanding of the subject matter to understand what your points are?

Claiming that the entire group of southern hogs is a hybridized population that proved viable is total nonsense too as the Easterns and Westerns that he claims are the parent species don't cross with the Southerns even where the ranges overlap...

Besides which, I'm not sure what's wrong with this guy's perception, but they don't even bear much of a resemblance, certainly not enough of one to come up with this foolish theory.

Now... common anscestry for the three species, that could be argued for... A pattern of natural history that attempts to detail the widespread pattern of growth and alteration to different species based off adaptation to new stimulus and environment...

But he's got it back-ass-wards and doesn't even understand the way nomenclature is used, calling animals that are in the same genus conspecific... Guess that makes Burmese and Balls the same species... And cuban knight anoles are the same thing as green anoles... And green tree pythons? Well, they're just carpet pythons with grass stains.

my question to you is why have you chosen to ignore my posts on the other thread. afraid i was making too much sense?

Now admittedly it's only been about forty seven hours since my last post was made on this thread but... Heck, turnabout is fair play, right?

So Chad... why haven't you commented any further on this thread? You were posting with great frequency up until the point where you proved that you didn't understand even basic taxonomy, evolution or genetics... so why the sudden stop?

Afraid that you make no sense?

What we are trying to say is that snakes are more closely related than previously believed. Why can we produce viable offspring when crossing your so-called species/genera lines?? I feel the taxonomy of snakes is wrong. You should NEVER be able to cross genra! yet a king corn exsists.

One of the biggest problems in this discussion is that the person who is attempting to debate the issue and performing these hybridizations has no idea about even basic genetics or taxonomy.

My understanding of genetics is pretty thorough. I have had many discussions with Terry Dunham on this subject and have learned what I can from websites like N.E.R.D. and from textbooks and hands on experience. I can't believe you would even imply that you have so much as a clue about how knowledged I am in the subject of genetics. Once again your assumptions are unfounded.

The way they are classified lampropeltis is the genus, no? As is Elaphae, 2 separate genera within a family right? To my understanding on paper crossing genera should be pretty far fetched I may be wrong but does that not show a flaw or lack of understanding in modern taxonomy? or is this a rare case where the "rules" don’t apply? Either way I’ve got unanswered questions and I don’t expect you to be able to answer them for me. My loose reference of genus/species/intergrade is due to the way I choose to view things at least in theory and isn't taxonomy based on theory anyway?

To say I’m unfamiliar with those basic taxonomy terms is preposterous.

An intergrade is the crossing of two sub-species or two separate locale specific animals within the same sub-species.

Locale specific (are you truly questioning my understanding of this term???) well Seamus it means that the origin of the animal can be pointed out on a map. Different people interpret what exactly designates weather two animals are from the same locale but the term itself is pretty strait forward.

and a hybrid is the crossing of two species.

So yes I do understand all of these terms.

Now that we got all that out of the way...

I’m tired of you pretending that I sit around throwing snakes together until one of em twitches. I do not. I practice selective breeding. Weather or not it is all for some greater scientific knowledge or not is irrelevant. However I believe that there are things to be learned through hybridization ALSO. You treat me like a con man. like I’m trying to get one over on the naeve herper. Well that’s bullsh*t. I work with snakes because I have a love and deep interest for them. My partners do as well. I don't know who you are or what you do but I have been crystal clear about what I do, what I’m about and what Diablo Snake Farm as a whole produces and believes. If not I will reiterate.

We work with gopher snakes, king/milk snakes, hognose, redtail boas, Jungle Carpet pythons, corn snakes ( the nice ones only, you have to have your standards) AND HYBRIDS. Our hybrid stock includes Pyro King Corns, Gray band snow corns, albino king corns and numerous work in progresses. We carry many locale specific gray bands like the Lajitas and River Road, and many locale specific Gopher Snakes and Hognose.

Gordon you are a funny little guy. You’re a cheerleader and nothing more. Why don't you focus on your bugs and pipe down. This is between Seamus and Diablo Snake Farm!

p.s. i was busy over memorial day weekend. i sometimes have better things to do. talking to you rarely takes priority.

You know I've been accused of many things but funny has rarely been one of them, and little .. Hardlyy.. ohh wait sarcasm.. I get it

Once again you are wrong though, it is not between you and Seamus it is between you and who ever is interested enough in the topic to post their opinion. Yes I admit I have been content to let Seamus do the arguing, but then he is so much more eloquent than I am, but makes the same points I would try to make in a much lamer manner, By the way I dont have the legs for a cheerleading outfit. So no piping down for this cheerleader when I see a point in making a comment I will even if it just to lend a little moral suppost to our champion.

It's simple really...

Thinking that Heterodon was the species designation and that hog noses were conspecific proves that Chad has no real understanding of taxonomy.

Thinking that interspecies fertility in captive conditions proves that Chad has no idea what the word "Species" means.

Thinking that he's going to figure out dominant color patterns when the animals have different dominant genes to start proves that he has no understanding of genetics.

His new statement stating that the science doesn't matter contradicts a statement made on page one in response to Kelli where he said that he was performing experiments to open up hybridization as a scicnce... This proves that he's a liar.

His inability to answer questions posed to him proves that he can't even back up his lies with semi-convincing B.S. this, in my opinion, says something about his brains (and lack thereof).

His seeming need to resort automatically to unrelated insults (i.e.-"cheerleader") shows that he's got nothing he can use to ACTUALLY insult anyone in a meaningful manner by pointing out legitimate flaws. I have no problem attacking a person in addition to attacking a position, but at least use something legitimate, calling Gordon a "cheerleader" is just making you sound even more stupid than I believe you are... and I have no respect whatsoever for your intelligence Chad, so that's saying something.

And being a public forum... anyone can participate in any thread where responses are allowed until such a point as Rich tells them they're no longer able to why would you, Chad, think that you somehow have any right or ability to control who responds to posts? Were you just unhappy that Gordon's arguments were logical, reasonable, sound and more convincing than yours?

It's been known for a while that Lampropeltids can interbreed, and so, yes, maybe they should all be one big genus. Genera are strictly human concepts anyway, and they could officially put all pitvipers in the genus 'Fred' tomorrow and it wouldn't change how the snakes are acutally related.
Techniques like DNA hybridization are much more useful and informative in figuring out the acutal historical relationships between snakes species (I think that's what they recently used to sort out the mess that is Elaphe), and sitting around and crossbreeding different combinations is slow and too open to human interpretation in comparison. It's just not going to 'prove' anything to anyone, especially not the scientific community.


Erin B.

(Incidentally, black ratsnakes (P. o. obsoleta, now, I think?) and eastern milksnakes (L. t. triangulum) never seem to interbreed here in Ohio, despite the fact that they are both quite common and look very similar. I guess I thought I'd toss that in.)

ok lets address these comments made by Seamus. the cheerleader comment refered to the fact that everytime you rambled on about nothing, doing what you can to tear appart what i say and insult me (in vain), gordon followed one of your posts like " yeah thats what i was gonna say, you go girl!" cheering you on. Now all of your ignorant statements about me being less than intellegent i'm just going to ignore because they are based on nothing and are untrue. i never claimed to want to "open up hybridization as a science" i simply stated that in experimenting with different crosses we may be able to better understand the origin of a species or genera and in the proccess we can rewrite taxonomy CORRECTLY. i also think your lame ass comment (yet another) about my lack of understanding on the subject of genetics is digging a little to deep in hopes of me not challenging your b.s. assumption. i am familiar with how genes work. i was able to define all your little terms Seamus so obviously despite what i supposedly stated in previous posts I DO UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF THE WORD SPECIES. i proved that in my last post. well i've grown tired of you and this discussion. i've said what i have to say. i hope you manged to prove what ever the hell it was you were trying to prove ( i think it was that all hybrid breeders are selling cross genera animals, [which is unheard of except for in snakes and thier poor classification, by the way] for greed, power, and ultimately because we are all liars who are inexperianced in breeding despite the fact that we breed plenty of purebred animals [but you choose to ignore that fact because it doesn't back up any of what you say]) because i've said what i needed to say. so go... go find some other people to harass with your senseless propaganda, or don't... cause like you said it is not my place to say what you guys can and can't do ( as if thats what i was trying to do in the first place). gordon... i don't give a rat ass what it is you say i just find you're pointless little peanut gallery comments to be of no use and you're time would be better spent playing with your bugs and not cheering on Seamus like he's your boyfriend. so with that i leave you. i or jeremiah may post more pics on this thread but i'm done talking.

p.s. just a few tips for your future attacks on people...
1. get to the point.
2. proofread your posts.
3. research who you are dealing with.
4. find a better "cheerleader"
and finally....
5. read a book on biology (ecspecially any chapters about intergrades and hybrids) i suggest Essentials of Modern Biology. but than again if you started reading books you might actually think about doing a little hybridation yourself and we know you couldn't pull it off so why bother.

Sincerely,
Chad A. Elmore
Diablo Snake Farm
webmaster/ hognose specialist/ partial owner

p.s.s. to erin... i wish i had the technology on hand to perform hybridization experiments that way. it seems to me if that technology is available than someone ISN'T DOING THIER JOB! someone needs to do a dna test on all lampropeltis... and the rest of colubridae... and than create a database. SO WE KNOW FOR SURE thier relation to one another. the taxonomy of snakes was done half-assed in my opinion and its time to use techonology and science to iron out all the wrinkles. once we figure out what defines a snake (genetically speaking) we can than define what mutated genes a normal looking snake may be heterozygous for. taking the gamble out of purchasing hets. we would also be able to define linebred traits from genetic traits ( i.g. a snake that was line bred for reduced black vs. a hypomelanistic snake). this subject gets me very excited. lemme know when one of those dna machines goes on sale ( maybe clearance) and i'll buy one. but chances are no one will hear from me for a long long time. i'll be in my lab taking down research.

once again i bid you all a belated farewell. i'm moving on to greener pastures in hopes of hybridizing russian thistle with alfalfa, oh wait i forgot you can only cross generas in snakes... my mistake.

i believe that the use of mitochondrial DNA sequence analysis is a more accurate way of conducting the type of "experiments" i have mentioned in earlier post however i must work within my means and like i've also stated in previous posts... i'm not getting rich off of snakes. but than again i don't exactly need to to satisfy myself with breeding snakes by aquiring large piles of money. the process of breeding and producing snakes alone is adequate payment. even when i do make alot of money off of breeding snakes i will just use that money to buy more snakes and help finance Diablo Snake Farm.

once again. i'm done on this thread. i'm sure i will be accused of being a liar again by our pathetically insulting "friend" because i said that my last post was my final post on this thread. but i'll try not to let it bother me.

chad elmore
Diablo Snake Farm

Hybrids fill an essential and important niche in herpetology. Where else can you find completely worthless feeders for those hard to satisfy Cobras and Kingsnakes that we love to keep?

Seriously, this is a much better solution than raping the wilderness for WC's to satisfy the demand with. I think it is wonderful that someone has decided to try to produce more attractive feeders.

Well, they DID just sort out Elaphe quite nicely, so maybe they'll work on Lampropeltis next. They also did a bit of work figuring out what evolved from what in North America (I guess Senticolis is sort of the ancestral genus). Problem is that now three of my snakes have changed genera and I'm having problems remembering the names. Also, now I have to go buy a Chinese king rat so I have a 'real' Elaphe again.

Erin Benner