The No-Insults Hybridization Debate

Take a glass of water.

Call it a captive population of animals.

Add a drop of iodine. The water is no longer and NEVER AGAIN WILL BE pure.

People breeding hybrids may themselves be immaculately careful and exactingly sure to spread information about their crimes against nature. The people who buy them from the original producers... not so much. And the people who buy from secondary sources even less so. A lot of hobbiests who get the notion to breed really have a very poor grasp of things to begin with and I am fully aware, from personal experience, that many of them are simply ignorant to the point where they don't understand the concept of a "species" and certainly don't understand that say... a Jungle Corn isn't just a color phase of cornsnake. Anyone condoning the creation of hybrids has a squirt gun full of iodine and a blindfold on in a room full of glasses of water.

There are a few... very few but they exist... examples of animals which are not categorized as a single species which do have regular examples of intergradiation in the wild (Like say... gabboon and rhino vipers... or florida and brooks kings). Which such evidence of natural interbreeding is found, the taxonomy needs to be revised. It does not constitute an excuse for crossing blood pythons with ball pythons or shoving together colubrids from three different genera found with most of a continent between their natural ranges.

Anyone who can condone the creation of hybrids is either driven strictly by the financial gains involved or is simply ignorant of the biological factors behind their actions. Or both.

I just believe all reptiles need to represented correctly of their heiritage reguardless of whether the reptile in question is a hybrid, pure, locality, morph, or intergrade.
The messing up of a gene pool or pure species can be done on many fronts besides hybridization. To this date I'm sure more gene pools of pure snakes have been tainted by people trying to morph specific applealing traits than hybrids.
What to me it really comes down to is the responsibility of hobbists(like me), breeders, dealers, and importers to practice proper ethics and morals in representation of a any reptiles lineage. I think Sasheena mentioned in a earlier post like what the AKC does with certification of dogs as representatives of a specific breed. That type of certification is probably a pipe dream in the reptile world and urealistic since our hobby isn't mainstream or has the funds or popular support for this. I could imagine an American Reptile Club (ARC) having snake shows where reptiles are judged to represent to best example of that species and just how many dogs were hybrids over many generations there eventually be spot for them.
As a small time hobbiest who doesn't breed why can't I own somethings different and unique?
I stradle the fence on this subject because I can see both points of view and the pros and cons of hybridization. Then I look at the Jaguar Carpets or I have to agree with someone else that the Pyroxcornxking cross is an attraction snake to me, maybe I would like to own one. Isn't it my choice and freedom to do so? As long as people are honest and responsible and the snake in question hybrid or not is properly represented of it's linage/heritage it's an individual choice. It looks like hybrids are here and they are going to stay and some people are excited about the possibilities of what can or may be. I still enjoy local specific and pure species like my Brazilian Rainbow Boa and San Luis Potosi mexican kingsnake (from Applegate lineage) just as much as I would enjoy to have a properly represented unique hybrid in my small humble collection. Like I said I can see both points of view and can emphasize each side of the issue, but I have come to my own conclusion and that is to do or have whatever I want in my collection.

What is or is not your right to own is not the question of this thread.

It's whether or not hybridization should occur at all.

Two completely different issues.

Hhhhhhhmmmmmmmm,
Thread titled, What is your opinion of hybrids?

That was my opinion and view of hybrids and all things inherent.

Cheers

If hybrids like corns/kings have been around since the 1980's in the last 10-20 years what damage/problems caused/chaos have hybrids done to the hobby?

Is it documented that hybrids are that determental to a hobby that is generally of captive bred, born, and raised animals?

Is the damage done by hybrids worse or comperable to the damage done by breeding of cb morphs, intergrades, and selective breeding for specific traits and how both these practices pollute pure gene pool or locality specific reptiles that would be representative of a particular species?

Some of these questions answered would help me formulate my opinion and whether or not they are going to truly damage this hobby or create more interest in this hobby or fortunately/unfortunately this could be the trend some areas of cb reptiles are going.
Uncloudy

Well, even with the blathering of the supposed "scientists", it is obvious that hybridization is ongoing, and will continue to do so. Humans have forced hybrids in every animal group we come across...horses, cows, pigs, fish, dogs, and cats...this is no different.
It would be nice to see people keeping better records of what they are doing, but just out right calling it "wrong" is pissing in the wind.
greg

A gentle reminder.... This is the no-insults debate. I'm sure there are plenty of insult- and hate-filled threads on the same subject. Nobody has yet fallen for personalized insults, but it would be in the best interests of the thread if we kept it to non-insulting terms, regardless of how general.

You may feel that anyone who does hybridization is evil incarnate.... if so, state your position on why you think it is wrong without adding the personalized notes. I know this is difficult for such an inflammatory issue, but it is best for THIS THREAD that those highly volatile opinions are kept in general terms.

The purpose of this thread is to learn WHY it's considered good or bad, evil, or neutral or the best thing since sliced cheese.... Tell us why without the emotion, and the audience is much more likely to pay attention and make informed decisions.

Creamcicle corns.

There. Reason. Polluted the general population of corns raised and signifigant questions about the purity of any animal that can't have it's lineage traced back to wild collection.

corns raised and signifigant questions

corns and raised signifigant*

An interesting point Seamus.

Of my 8 corns, I was given two.... they were touted as a "Creamsicle-looking female and a male who might have some Emoryii blood, het for amel"....

SO...with those two, I leave them as the pair they are. I am not breeding them with my other corns, and will market the babies as "Creamsicle and Rootbeer, aka normal-sicle." In point of fact they will not be sold for a profit. I don't know anything about their lineage, nor would I try to pass them off as pure corns to anyone purchasing them. If I ever bought another creamsicle, he/she might be bred to one of the pair I have, but I would not consider the offspring, no matter how "normal" looking to be normal corns. In point of fact I would work very hard to make sure that I didn't breed either of them to a "normal" corn so as to avoid babies with a stronger appearance of the 'normal' corn than the parents themselves possess.

I do believe, however, that just because creamsicles exist that it makes it impossible to believe that every corn on the planet without a pedigree is polluted. Of the corns I have I don't possess a strong lineage, but I'm sure I could easily email those who sold the animals to me and ask to learn what they know of the lineage and so forth and so on.

I think that if someone is to create a hybrid, additional responsibiliity is on their heads to consider the LOOK of their creation...if the hybrid or integrade they have created LOOKS like something it is not, it is important to ask yourself if what you are raising could end up misrepresented further down the line. I suppose that raising hybrids would be a lot easier if you had a snake-eating snake that would not convert to rodents ... you would always have a place to "put" those of your creations that are too nearly identical to a "natural" snake and thus too likely to inadvertently pollute the gene pool.

Anyway... just rambling tonight.