Kingsnake.com... Again...

This really doesn't fit in the BOI and isn't exactly a question more just me venting some irritation over a situation.

I had stopped using kingsnake.com's forums years ago... I couldn't pin exactly when since I trailed off rather than making a specific descision to stop utilizing it and Jeff has gone through a few revisions since then that, as far as I know, should have deleted my login ID. The problems at that point were the manner in which about 40 people were all claiming to be Bob Clark and another Sixty were claiming to be one of the Barkers and they'd all fight with one another and post some of the worst god-awful crap I've ever seen.

Anyway, fastforwarding to more recent times- I've occasionally perused the kingsnake forums from time to time purely to read if not reply and I was pretty pleased with the manner in which it had (mostly) shaped up. Kingsnake on the whole has always been a great site because of a few factors; the people who pay for hosting services, the people who pay for classified ads, some of the people who post in the forums... And then all the assorted "extras" show listings, nomenclature updates and the occasional care or husbandry page that was hosted... The forums were getting back on track.

This morning around 2 or 3 AM, someone showed me This Link

No big deal at first glance however... as some AOL users may realize, the entire list of people who are "New Hosts and Moderators" are HOSTs on the AOL "Pets Reptiles" message boards... One of the worst, foulest, most ridiculous and anthropomorphizing, censoring, "Big Brother", insecure, uptight and unacceptable message boards on-line today. These people often seem worse than Joe P (See 300 page BOI Post) in their rampant censorship and abuse of the insignifigant powers they've been granted. Anything in the least negative about them, however true, is removed... Anything that deals with the scientific aspects of animal care or husbandry is removed and replaced with ridiculous statements about Burms coming when called like a dog.

I'm not sure who is responsible for this group of proverbial misfits being picked up as moderators as if there was anything competent or educated about the lot of them, but Jeff is often critisized for his buisness descisions and customer/user relations as it is and this is hardly the way to fix that situation. For those who may not have AOL (You're far smarter than those of us who do) there are a number of these HOSTs who patroll the "Pets reptiles" message boards avaliable only through that service... The most prominent of whom is Melissa Kaplan (Iguanas for Dummies (by a dummy)), a woman often critisized for the lack of tangible information and the amount of anthropomorphizing she performs... The others all fall into line with identical mentalities and paucity of background, experience and knowledge.

Jeff, if you happen to read this forum (I also sent this in e-mail but I can imagine the volume he recceives) using these people in any official capacity for any length of time or any reason will eventually lead to problems for you... You do an amazing volume of buisness and traffic but you may find that going down as the more competent, educated and established proffessionals drop off and start pulling their advertising, failing to use your hosting services, utilizing other classified services, not participating in your hosted guest chats, pulling their care information and stopping their use of your forums because of a sense of disgust and outrage at being censored and contradicted by this group of clowns, proffessional jokes and ignorant fools you seem to have taken on.

Hopefully some others who have viewed the AOL forums and know the kind of foolishness I'm talking about will chime in, I can provide some examples off the message boards that illustrate my points- mostly husbandry based posts so I'll refrain from posting them now to prevent massive sidetracking of the issue- will chime in or lend some support to this and perhaps send their thoughts to Jeff as well, agree or disagree, I'd like to personally hear what people think about this; Buisness suicide (although slow just because of the size of kingsnake) or not?

The only really positive result of this action that I can see would be a distinct increase in traffic on sites other than kingsnake (this one for example) as the exodus begins. There are far fewer people unhappy or upset with Rich's forms of moderating the site than Kingsnake has already, if I read the above link correctly, the number of dissatisfied individuals should increase sharply.

I have made at least two posts on kingsnake.com forums, in recent months, wherein a moderator for kingsnake.com replied in essence saying my opinion was wrong, and the moderator stated his/her opinion as fact. I have also seen them do the same in one or two other people's posts.

If I remember correctly, I believe the initial post that I was virtually attacked in by one of these so called moderators was one in which I posted my opinion that field collecting, when done legally and within game management guidelines, is a valid and ethical method of obtaining herp stock. I do not mind someone having an opinion on an issue I raise, but when a moderator came back in a post and said that such was wrong, harmful to the environment, in essence unethical, so on and on - and when that moderator stated such as fact and not the moderator's opinion - it got me pretty fired up. That got me pretty pissed off and I fired back a fairly respectable comment to Jeff and to the webmaster at kingsnake.com. Someone replied to me, I think his name was Tom but cannot swear to it, who told me that my concerns would be brought up to Jeff. The essence of my email to them was that I was absolutely incredulous to find that kingsnake.com moderators would be telling people that their way was the only way (which in essence is what they had done) thereby defeating the whole purpose of having open forums in the first place. I also explained that the job of a moderator is just that - to moderate and make sure the rules are followed - and not to give opinions nor to say another's information is incorrect or correct. I went on to explain that when such is done, it then appears as if kingsnake.com is giving full support and endorsement to the opinions of the moderators or even worse that such are the actual opinions of the organization kingsnake.com itself.

Since I sent my emails to the management of kingsnake.com I have not had any of the moderators come back and slam any of my posts. I guess someone at the top is listening, but I cannot speak for anyone else that may have been slammed by these so called moderators. My firm belief, and this is my opinion, is that these people are undercover animal rights activists who are trying to subtly get into the hobby in order to destroy it bit by bit. My guess is, they will try this along the lines of the following rhetoric: first they will try to make everyone think they have to become lovey dovey with reptiles. Then they will try to convince everyone that collectors and importers are evil; and after that will try to show that breeders are mistreating animals and so forth. Finally I believe they will say something along the lines of: ‘no one should really keep these wonderful creatures that god meant to roam freely’. That is a shame because people keeping pets is part of human nature and a way for us to be in touch with a more natural part of our world.

As far as Melissa Kaplan goes, I find many of her articles and much of her advice, in my opinion, often to be little more than disheartening pontification. She seemingly, in my view, gives so called pet advice making herself appear as a champion of pets and pet keepers; yet seemingly in the same breadth she also sometimes sends out the message that that reptiles and amphibians should not be kept as pets because of the difficulty involved in keeping them. By doing so she implies, in my opinion, that people are wrong to keep them. In my belief, she should be telling us how wonderfully responsible it is of us that we are reading her articles trying to find out how to properly care for our animals. I make specific reference to Ms. Kaplan’s online article: 'So, You Think You Want A Reptile?' . In my opinion she tries to discourage people from keeping pet reptiles and amphibians while at the same time trying to appear as if she encourages keeping them. My guess is that many of the other so called moderators would fall in line with her. As I see it, it would certainly be a shame if kingsnake.com went the way of another pet site, wherein the moderators frequently slam anyone whose posted opinions are in opposition to those of the management. This could be considered by some as sort of censorship that would make a site not worth visiting, don’t you think?

The really scary thing is that one of the moderators, I believe it was PH Scales, contacted me recently asking me to become a moderator at kingsnake.com; I politely refused. Hopefully those in charge at kingsnake.com will see the light, and if they continue to use moderators they will allow them to moderate and nothing more! Another hope I have is that people who use sites like kingsnake.com will continue to post intelligent answers to even the novice questions; and that these same people will contact the management of kingsnake.com to voice their dissatisfaction with the manner in which kingsnake.com has used its moderators. (Or is that how it has let the moderators use kingsnake.com?) Other than the moderators voicing their opinions in posts and appearing, to me at least, to be doing so in the name of kingsnake.com - I believe kingsnake.com to be a great site.

I went on to explain that when such is done, it then appears as if kingsnake.com is giving full support and endorsement to the opinions of the moderators or even worse that such are the actual opinions of the organization kingsnake.com itself.

That being one of the signifigant problems with the manner these people have operated in the past. Unfortunately it creates the impression that they are authorities in their respective fields (not generally the case, see Kaplan) and those least able to distinguish the opinion of a volunteer moderator for fact are those they target the most.

Many of those neophyte keepers make the mistake of assuming that a moderator is an expert or that someone who writes a book that sells in petstores knows what they're talking about.

Combine that with the manner in which these moderators seem to have no qualms in deleting any posts that lend evidence to alternative opinions or cast legitimate dispersions on their credibility, leaving theirs as the "absolute word" on the subject and, like you said, you lose the validity of free expression of thought that open forums are supposed to represent.

This is not merely a case of having certain rules about the use of explitives or using full names as the BOI requests... This is a case of individuals using what is supposed to be an informational resource (unfortunately one that appeals to those who need one most) as their own private self promulgation machine.

I wonder if Kaplan pays Jeff a banner ad fee for every time her Iguanas for Dummies book title shows up? Or a classified fee for every post on a forum that she responds to by linking to anapsid.org (also covered with self promoting ads)?

Informational resources lose their value when individuals decide to use them solely for their own personal gain with no willingness to admit that alternative viewpoints have a certain validity.

My firm belief, and this is my opinion, is that these people are undercover animal rights activists who are trying to subtly get into the hobby in order to destroy it bit by bit.

I agree 100%

As I said in my original post, this exact same group acts as moderators on the AOL pets reptiles message boards, in addition to the massive load of inaccurate or half-accurate husbandry info are several distinct agendas... Rack Systems are Cruel, Not handling a snake daily is failure to display a love of the animal, Wholesalers, internet vendors, breeders and Petstores are all liars and scam artists who only want your money, field collection is universally wrong wven for species not threatened or with a valid permit to do so or to introduce new blood to captive stock, venomous animals should never be kept by private keepers no matter how educated, large boids and varanids are all inappropriate pets (but somehow green iguanas are attributed with all the intelligence of Bambi Characters and will recciprocate emotion- diet and environment have nothing to do with behavior, it's all how much they love you, funny how a four foot aggressive lizard is unacceptable but a six foot aggressive lizard that Kaplan wrote a book about is just fine)... And On and On and On...

I haven't gotten anything back from Jeff or any Kingsnake representatives about my opinions on the situation but I am considering a more signifigant action if I can muster enough support... A petition with the names of individuals who concur with my thoughts at the very least... Perhaps a call to boycott the forums, classifieds, banner ads and Hosted Chats... If he finds himself facing downsizing from the individuals who really keep his site running (Those who visit and participate) he might, at the very least, reconsider the descision to allow these people free reign for their private agendas.

I'm certainly not a big name breeder but... I put in my time getting degrees... I've worked towards my experience and knowledge... It bothers me that someone who doesn't come close to my education can wantonly censor my thoughts simply because theirs don't coincide. I'm more than willing to respectfully debate issues... Provide evidence of thought... But "I'm the moderator so I'm right." rubs my moral sense the wrong way.

I think most of us have noticed some of the inroads made by these animal rights activists in herp-keepers' clothing. However, there was a recent thread on the kingsnake forum dedicated to corn and rat snakes where someone attacked rack systems, and EVERYONE reacted the same way, shoving that junk right back in her face!

I am all for a free and frank discussion, living or dying in the arena of ideas, but when someone has an obvious alterior motive, it is good to see that person knocked down a peg or two. Anyone is entitled to his own opinion on any subject, but when he begins to think that having his opinion automatically makes it a valid one, he has crossed the line of logical thought and shows himself for what he is.

Ah to be able to travel backward in time and meet Walt Disney, and beat some sense into him before he produced Bambi. Why in heck he didn't just stick with the babe who met the seven little weirdos is beyond me. The world would have been a happier place had we still been able to pick on perverted weirdos, hunt and fish, and not have to be bothered by nigthmares of Bambi, or Yogi the Bear and BooBoo talking to us begging us not to shoot. That one film alone, in my opinion, has done more to foster animal rights extremist wackos than anything else in history! First it made hunters look bad like a bunch of drunks and slobs who plunder mother nature, and of course it made guns look bad like tools of the evil one, and it made all the animals look like our equals who could talk to us and who could love and feel just like us. Heck, I remember when a hunter arriving home in Brooklyn was the hero of the block when he had a deer draped over the hood or roof of the car. I was taught at an early age, despite living in NYC, how to handle guns properly. I also remember being taught to respect people, and to respect nature. I learned early on that if I took something from nature I also had to put something back, and I had to be careful never to take too much. When it comes to guns I never shot up a classroom of fellow students (although I shot a guy in his bells once when he tried to rob me) - know why - because I respect the law, and other people, and because I know how to get my jollies and how to vent my frustrations without going beserk like an extremist. All these extremists nowadays want to do is dis other people, and restrict their rights and privelages for the sake of being in power. They don't really give a rats bottom end about the animals, in my opinion.

What the heck is a meat eater supposed to do? Well I just bought another rifle and I am heading to the hills this weekend for some camping out and hunting. Man I hope it doesn't get too cold - I have my sights set on a deer I named Bambi - what else! I even have a permit to blast his mom if I cannot find him. After that I am going to a herp show and buying another snake.

Somehow I think this may wind up being outright pulled or put into the BS section, but I just had to get it off my chest!

My firm belief, and this is my opinion, is that these people are undercover animal rights activists who are trying to subtly get into the hobby in order to destroy it bit by bit.

Glenn wanna know what is funnyabout your comment?
I read the post that Seamus made....I read it with an open mind and a grain of salt. I have decided not to form an opinion. Then I followed the link and looked at the pictures of the new kingsnake moderators.....
guess what all of a sudden popped into my head?

can you guess? huh? huh?
can you guess?
let me give you a clue

these people are undercover animal rights activists who are trying to subtly get into the hobby in order to destroy it bit by bit.

Now I am not saying they are animal rights activists.......but that just popped into my head..
and I found it funny that it also popped into someone else's head besides mine.


Your fellow Meat EATER
Ritchie Luna

p.s. if they can sue gun distributors because people use guns to kill with.
can I sue the ford dealerships?...because some people use cars to kill with?

Now I am not saying they are animal rights activists.......but that just popped into my head..

I'll say it outright.

These people are that kind of animal rights activist.

There was a thread on the AOL boards today where a member had gone to a herp show and harassed all the vendors because they had animals in deli cups and temporary show housing, making a nuiscance of herself and impeeding legitimate and legal buisness because it somehow didn't fit in with her bambi based husbandry information (just don't ask her anything specific, like diet or temp)...

The Hosts... these same people now moderating kingsnake... All jumped in and congratulated her for putting a stop to those evil vendors.

The same member had a simultaneous thread about how she suggested a woman keep a spotted turtle in Massachusetts despite knowing it was illegal because it was "her pet" and should therefor be exempt from state law somehow...

It'll turn bad for Jeff eventually, these sorts know how to slowly and insiduously choke off and isolate those who can contradict and correct them, leaving nothing but their own agendas and those foolish enough to believe them.

Your fellow Meat EATER

Vegetables aren't food... Vegetables are what food eats.

p.s. if they can sue gun distributors because people use guns to kill with. can I sue the ford dealerships?...because some people use cars to kill with?

People are suing McDonalds for making them fat... your proposed lawsuit makes more sense than that, give it a shot... Unfortunately many people won't get the joke and would think that it's a legitimate case. You might end up with quite a bit of money... and a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach that we're breeding for stupidity.

impeding***

I'd be interested in seeing some of these posts from the "moderators". They do seem rather flakey to me, and I've heard multiple stories/complaints about them passing off their misinformed opinions as fact. If someone could provide me with some links, I'd be very appreciative.

I'd be interested in seeing some of these posts from the "moderators".

If you have AOL, I'll gladly link you to the message boards and you can see it firsthand, if you do not, I could get a few screencaptures and quotes from some of the more noteable ones.