Difficult Questions...

This is my opinion

WEBSLAVE
This forum is designed to serve the purpose of giving anyone interested in the buying and selling of herptile related merchandise the opportunity to inquire about, or find already existing information concerning a person or business with whom they are considering doing business with.

<Taken from the first line of the BOI in his own words.>

WEBSLAVE
I am providing this forum as a public service.

<Taken from the first sentence of the disclaimer of the BOI.>

When a site starts out free as a public service it should remain free at all times. If the intent is to have a “for profit” service it should have been created as such from the beginning! The members helped to build the site and by now contemplating charging them a service fee for such a service is slap in the face of the people who helped build such a site.

Where as I believe charging for the right to post classifieds, banners or advertisements is a legitimate action for negating some of the cost of running such an operation. Charging the general membership base to offset the cost is not.

The members of this site are the ones who make it what it is. Without these people and the ones to come this site will certainly loose many good people that are willing to contribute their time and resources to help others.

A person can not factor in time spent on a site based on an hourly wage if they created it to be nonprofit to begin with. There are many good people who own and run or are staff on numerous websites that are not paid for the time they devote to helping run a site. It is common knowledge that it is a volunteer action you take on to aid a friend or a cause you believe in. Thus you are not paid for your efforts and in many cases not even thanked for them.

WEBSLAVE off the BOI from the thread financing the boi

So in this case for the classified sections,
• a guest (or unregistered) could read the ads but not reply to them nor create a thread (ad) themselves.
• A non-paying member could read the thread (ads) and reply to them, but could not post a thread (ad).
• A paying member could post a thread, reply to their own thread, and reply to other's threads.

This would be a smart choice to gain revenue for the site. However with Kingsnakes marketing power and “known” status I firmly believe that the vendors would just use it and not fauna’s as Kingsnake does generate them more business from the vendors I have spoken to about where they generate the most internet sales from.

In the case of the BOI it would be:
• guests and unregistered viewers would not be able to view the BOI, nor post anything in it.
• non-paying members would be able to view the BOI, but not able to post new threads nor replies to any of them.
• paying members would be able to read the BOI and post both new threads and replies.

Guest this wont effect in any way as they currently can not view the BOI without registering.

Members built the BOI without them there would be no BOI look at all the other sites who have one and how very little they are used. Fauna is known for the BOI and thus it gets used. By having members only be able to read it and not reply or make new threads it will quickly become of no use to anyone as many will not pay for the right to post when they can find a site that is free. That site will then become the home of the new BOI.

Every person be they a single poster or a person with 1000+ post is and should be a valuable member to any site. Putting any one or group of persons down for not having a large volume of post should be a slap in the face to all members especially when coming from the sites owner.

Why am I so against cost for viewing or replying? Simple I was on a board at one time that had a very large member base. The owner decided he wished to charge people for the right to view and post. The day he started the posting dropped off by 90% then after I believe it was 2 months opened it back up to free. The thing is the members remember that stunt and did not come back this was 7 or 8 years back the site was gone within 6 months. I would be willing to bet people haven’t changed that much and do not forget. Membership builds sites and groups without them there is not one!

• non-paying members would be able to view the BOI, but not able to post new threads nor replies to any of them.

You want to keep your members but force them to pay for what is free now and will definitely be free on other boards they will leave.

When I sign on to something that is free and then find out several years later that the person wants to now charge I will just find another site that’s free. If I was told up front it would cost me then I would have either signed up or not. But the choice was mine at that time to make. Now it is as if you either pay me or you don’t get the freedoms and rights you currently have. Sorry I didn’t sign on to fauna to pay and had I know from the start I would be forced to pay down the road I would not have signed on. Again I can see advertising rates but not charges for the right to post on forums of any kind.

No offence intended but you ask for input that’s how I see it from personal views on a site charging after it has a large member base, to what happened with one site that tried it. I hope that it helps in some way.

I hear what you are saying, Scott, and I do believe there probably are a number of other sites that are sincerely hoping for the windfall that this site failing would bring them. But sooner or later, they will be facing the same dilemma. But heck, I didn't foresee this either when I started up this site, so I guess I can't blame anyone else for being blind to it.

You brought up ks and the classifieds, so refresh my memory, please. Were classified ads there once for free or not? I don't remember. If so, who was it that built up the member base there for the classifieds? Wouldn't have been the people posting there, now would it?

ALL websites are built by the members involved. That is a dual edged sword. Any site that increases in popularity and traffic is going to experience increased costs and work. There is NO escaping that. Good intentions don't pay the bills when things start getting to be more then they can be painlessly handled.

I have to agree the scenario you brought up has been one from the start that has had me scratching my head over. I'm still working on a suitable solution for it, which is one of the reasons I am taking my time over this and not jumping right into it.

But heck, this is what it looks like my choices are, based on people's predictions:

(1) Leave the site as it is, and continue paying the bills and doing the work, hoping that what money that is currently coming in will continue to be good enough.

(2) Start charging for some of the services and the site will drop back some, but will build back again as a better site.

(3) Start charging for some services and the site will nose dive and go under.


#1 is just not going to cut it any longer. It is more effort then I want to put into it for free. If anyone believes I am obligated to continue doing this for free for the rest of my life, then you are just living in a dream world.

#2 obviously is the best of the listed outcomes, so I can only hope that this is what will happen. But I don't have a crystal ball, and there is no way of knowing beforehand whether it will come about this way or not.

#3 well too bad too sad, I guess. Worst case is that I lose all of this free work I have been dishing out and now have more time to do things that will actually earn me money or else be the fun things I have been putting off in favor of spending time here. I am quite willing to accept that, and actually gladly at this point. If I have nothing to gain with the status quo, and the status quo is no longer acceptable, then what do I have to lose with a change?

Rich. Honestly the hell if i remember if they were free or not but i do have several of the finacials and other info on kingsnakes classifieds if you want ill post them just give me a few days to dig them out.

I think your best recourse honestly would be charge for those things that would be concidered a bussiness end of the website such as.
A) Website hosting on your server "if you own the server"
b) charge for banner space
c) charge for advertisement space
d) increase fines
e) charge for classified listings
f) hold a POTM contest with entry fee's say half the fee goes to fauna half to the winner.
just a few ideas. But regaurdless charging those who helped build the site to now use it just not good business or fare to them.

Scott,

I guess I I just don't have any pity for someone who thinks that $10 is too much of a burden to bear up under after everything I have put out for this site. So it is MORE fair for me to have to take up the entire burden without asking more people to share the load?

Oh, and no, I really don't want to drag much about ks into this discussion. Just a simple answer to my original question will suffice, please.

Originally Posted by Mustangrde1

Members built the BOI without them there would be no BOI look at all the other sites who have one and how very little they are used. Fauna is known for the BOI and thus it gets used. By having members only be able to read it and not reply or make new threads it will quickly become of no use to anyone as many will not pay for the right to post when they can find a site that is free. That site will then become the home of the new BOI.

I've seen some sites where you can say something like, "I bought a whatever from whomever, it was awesome, if you are looking for something, I recommend them" but anything else is not allowed, or is moderated/deleted.

I wasn't aware of sites that are "unmoderated" where you can tell it like it is about a deal gone good or bad, whether it's joe blow down the street or a world famous breeder. Could you point me to other sites that have a true BOI, and not just a place that allows comments if they are good or are comments that the website or forum owner agrees with. I'd love to check them out.

Originally Posted by Mustangrde1

Now it is as if you either pay me or you don’t get the freedoms and rights you currently have. No offence intended .

No offence to you either, but these are the comments that are getting very tiring..............what freedoms?..............what rights ? Rich isn't Benjamin Franklin and he's not drafting the Bill of Rights, he's a "just" a man, and for people to "demand" he keep a site free, no matter the cost to him financially, mentally etc. just so they can investigate a seller, so they don't get ripped off, is IMHO selfish if not rediculous.

As for losing a lot of members (if a fee is implemented), I remember and participated in, the original, original BOI and even though the "membership" back then was probably a fraction of what it is now, it was just as important to those of us who were around, and if memory serves correctly it weeded out just as many unethical, thieves, bad guy con artists, and had many useful good guy posts, so if people don't feel the peace of mind is worth $10, at least there will hopefully be enough willing to pay the fee, that the BOI may be leaner, but still be around and be just as useful and important.

Originally Posted by reptilebreeder

Well, this is like the 4th or 5th related thread where I let everyone know that I would pay a membership fee, and left it at that. I feel I need to add additional opinions as it relates to these threads. That is, I personally am getting tired of the large number of people who say.

1. It is a great site and I potentially saved a bunch of money by checking out the BOI, but since it's always been free I would leave if money was charged.

2. I'm too poor, I don't have the money..........etc.
and related comments.

I think it's all crap. Like many people here I am way short of money, I did not add one single herp to my collection this whole past year. Did not "save" myself from being ripped-off, by using the BOI, because I didn't purchase anything. I still donated $10 just because this is an awesome site, then forked out another $25 and became a contributing member.

People are saying, I'm too poor to pay...........yet they came here to check out the BOI, cause they didn't want to get ripped-off........which is it? you're poor or you are spending money on herps. Boils down to, you are either to f........ cheap or feel the BOI is some god given right that you should be able to use for free to save yourself money from being ripped off.

Come on people we are talking about $10 or maybe $30 a year. The price of a 12 pack or two (how much is beer? I drink rather infrequently, so not to sure). The price of 1 or 2 movie tickets, or a coule magazines.

So or get off the pot.

As far as thinking that a fee will change the BOI, like many I have expressed some of these same concerns. So I can see that side of the "arguement", given that this is Rich's site if he determines that a fee is indeed the way to go, and that it also applies to the BOI, then that's the way it is.

I've decided to be optimistic and hope for the best, that being.... after some initial pissing and moaning by many of us, that we decide that this place is indeed worth every penny, and membership and participation continues and grows, and that the fee also cleans up the BOI a little bit, by making it harder to pay fees to keep reregistering.

Worst case scenario, a lot of people bail out, and rely on the other big site, and many people who no longer have the free BOI to bail them out, get ripped-off and places like bearded pets and the dozens of other thieves, start making money again and return to the other site with their ads, since we all know that it takes forever to get them banned from advertising over there, and that's with the knowledge of the BOI. Just think how it would be for all the people who didn't want to pay the ten bucks. They would have no way to know that "such and such" business, was the new "bearded pets" because the second they posted any kind of "inquiry" or complaint or anything remotely related to "checking out" an advertiser, the post would get deleted and you'd probably get banned from the site. Meanwhile.......the dozens or hopefully hundreds of us left over here "talking amongst ourselves" like people think might happen if a fee is charged, would be saving our hard earned cash, because we would know about those new business'

So if Rich decides a fee will affect the BOI in particular, I say if you are just too cheap or feel that the BOI is some kind of "right" and don't want to pay.....don't let the door hit you on the way .

If you are like me and many others, and don't feel there is anything wrong with a modest fee, but have reservations about it because of the effect it may have on the BOI, we will just have to ride it out and hope that the outcome is the best case scenario.
That's my take on the situation.

John this just what I feel I really dont post much or contribute much .. but what really eats me is that most of the ones crying poverty are making some sort of money selling their reptiles or some sort of product ...its only a couple of dollars .bottom line is Isnt This site worth the measly pennies To me it is and Im sure that some of the unheard masses feel the same as I do

Originally Posted by WebSlave

But heck, this is what it looks like my choices are, based on people's predictions:

(1) Leave the site as it is, and continue paying the bills and doing the work, hoping that what money that is currently coming in will continue to be good enough.

(2) Start charging for some of the services and the site will drop back some, but will build back again as a better site.

(3) Start charging for some services and the site will nose dive and go under.


#1 is just not going to cut it any longer. It is more effort then I want to put into it for free. If anyone believes I am obligated to continue doing this for free for the rest of my life, then you are just living in a dream world.

#2 obviously is the best of the listed outcomes, so I can only hope that this is what will happen. But I don't have a crystal ball, and there is no way of knowing beforehand whether it will come about this way or not.

#3 well too bad too sad, I guess. Worst case is that I lose all of this free work I have been dishing out and now have more time to do things that will actually earn me money or else be the fun things I have been putting off in favor of spending time here. I am quite willing to accept that, and actually gladly at this point. If I have nothing to gain with the status quo, and the status quo is no longer acceptable, then what do I have to lose with a change?

Or option #4 sell the rights to the site and the site outright. This would solve the problem of the headaches with this site and doing all the work for free. Also I can bet someone would snap it up at a reasonable price and not charge membership if that is the big problem here. I say think this over and let me know if you decide to do this.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

If I wanted to turn this site into one dedicated to sexual relationships between humans and animals, then yes, I could do that too.

Does that mean we should start posting those, um, "special" pics that showed up on rec.pets.herp a few years back?

Rich

This is your site and you can do what ever you want bro. The choice is yours.

I have suggestions for you though. Also did you get my email?

Ok

1)Just charge for classifieds first. Who knows that may be what you need man. Becuase if them people are not willing to pay to post classifieds a lot more people are not going to pay to post on the BOI. see my point. Start with the classifieds and see where it goes.

I seen somewhere that say if 6000 members stayed around and paid the 10 bucks and someone asked would that help. Shoot I would quit my job really....... That would be 60,000 dollars and a server runs anywhere from 1200 to 2000 dollars a year. I would teach myself everything to do with the server and bank the rest lol. Not putting you down bro I just was like wow when I seen them numbers. 50K a year is pretty good most do not make 30K working 50 hours a week

2)Raise the cost of the adds by 10 bucks a year, it is something!

3)Make your donation thing a little easier to see. Call me stupid but I still do not see it my friend.................

4) Sit back and let some of them emails fly bro. I might not get as many as you I know but I have had threats and I was getting about 50 or so a day a while back. Now it is around 20 or so just about my site. Sometimes you just look at them and laugh. They work themselves out.

5)You say you pick mods carefully. That is a good thing bro. I know what you are saying. But You can also make people mods and limit there powers too. Make them report to you for the big things. They can handle the little things like a bouncer lol.

But I say start with the classifieds man. See how it goes for say 2 months. think of a price and let everyone know the day it will go into effect. There will be more willing to pay for that then the whole thing you know. And if that goes bad you know where you stand and if it goes well you may not have to take anymore steps. It may be what you needed.

I would hate to see the BOI become a paid site. The reeason is It just would not carry the info anymore. Not that I am to cheap to pay but what would I be paying for if the info that I thought would be there is no longer there.............

Rich in no way is this a slam to you I trully mean to help man.............

So it is MORE fair for me to have to take up the entire burden without asking more people to share the load?

No not if the site is truly costing you that much out of pocket cash. Again though as with most sites it is a volunteer base of its staff not a paid possition so you can not count your time in that equation.

I did give you 6 examples of how to generate revenue to the site based on a business outlook of what would legitimately be the business part of the site. Those options would not cost the general membership any out of pocket expense and thus promote the growth of the site as well as generating revenue for you and the site.

Asking current members who have been using the site all along or potential members to pay for the abilities to post or view however is contrary to productive conversation or information gathering. The BOI will suffer as will the rest of the site is my concern.

Honestly how many members would be here today if you charged all along?
I know for myself I will not pay to be part of a site after the bad experiance i had before, if im already a member and it was free to start. Will I pay to stay on Fauna I honestly do not know. I use the BOI but i also can check with other people about vendors and their reputation so will it be wourth my while if i have to pay? I really do not know, if im paying for something I want to get something in return and with so many websites out there what will make fauna better then them?

Regardless of your choice i wish you and this site well. For me I will make my choice after seeing what structure you set-up and if it is worth my money and time to stay.