Black Pearl Reptiles

The connection between split scales and genetic bottlenecks is anecdotal at best. Is there any credible evidence that animals with split scales have noticeable issues when compared to animals with none? The relative frequency with which split scales are found in wild populations of snakes would suggest that inbreeding may not be the culprit (but may exacerbate the condition). It certainly is a good thing that hobbiests are interested in the health of their captives but to cast aspersions on a breeder when you have zero scientific proof of your claims is dangerous at best and opens doors for less upstanding competitors to slander ones name. We need to stick to the facts and anecdotal observations don't cut it.

Originally Posted by Phil Bradley

The connection between split scales and genetic bottlenecks is anecdotal at best. Is there any credible evidence that animals with split scales have noticeable issues when compared to animals with none? The relative frequency with which split scales are found in wild populations of snakes would suggest that inbreeding may not be the culprit (but may exacerbate the condition). It certainly is a good thing that hobbiests are interested in the health of their captives but to cast aspersions on a breeder when you have zero scientific proof of your claims is dangerous at best and opens doors for less upstanding competitors to slander ones name. We need to stick to the facts and anecdotal observations don't cut it.

Hi Phil,

I tend to side with your statement here, but like you said, "We need to stick to the facts and anecdotal observations don't cut it"

based on that statement, you can flip what you're saying on it's head.

Where's the scientific evidence or proof of Indigos in the wild with these scale aberrations? From what I have gathered online, it's only hearsay. Albeit, coming from breeders as well.

I visited East Coast Drymarchon's facebook page, and he is one of the big name breeders of Drymarchon who seems to believe any scale defect is a genetic flaw due to inbreeding. (Based on what i've seen/read on his facebook page)

And I have another Big name breeder of Drymarchon in Black Pearl, telling me it's not a slam dunk indicator of Inbreeding and these scale aberrations happen in completely unrelated Indigo offspring. and to need not worry about breeding.

As a hobbyist and someone who is still relatively new to Drymarchon, This is my first time actually diving deep and doing research as I want to breed them and It's really hard to form an opinion.

The people who's words I would deem trustworthy, are those who have experience breeding Indigos, Those Having seen/handled/worked with wild variants (not capturing obviously). and John does fall in that tiny category so I'm going to by his word.

BUT there are also those who fall into those categories or claim to, that are giving so much contradictory information online.

All this said, I believe there is a bit of over-dramatization about the issue from people who have never even bred Indigos or owned 1 or none, that like to put their opinion online or anecdotal evidence about "Genentic scale defects due to inbreeding"

As someone who is trying to do right by these beautiful creatures it makes it a little tough to form an educated opinion on the matter.

John does seem like a trustworthy guy and has replied to any questions I have had about my Indigos. He has even expressed willingness to share information to help me successfully breed my Indigos and like I said before, I'm going to go by his word and hope all is well.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone

Just wanted to mention that I hope it does not seem like I'm casting any aspersion toward Black Pearl Reptiles or anyone.

Just trying to share my recent experience of having bought 1.1 Eastern Indigos from them and want to provide the original poster with as much information as I can share so he can be confident when purchasing himself.

Bottom line: I purchased 2 beautiful Eastern Indigos from Black Pearl Reptiles, 1 absolutely flawless Black Phase male, and 1 Red Throat Female that does have 3 "Y" shaped scales above her vent (if that even matters). from the 3 months I have owned my red throat female, She seems to be an amazing indigo and 100% healthy, I have only owned my black phase male about a month, but he also is absoultely beautiful , flawless and seems to be 100% healthy.

I bought my first Drymarchon this year from John at Black Pearl Reptiles and would not hesitate to do business with him again. I did my research, which probably brought as many questions as answers to the table. John was very helpful in providing answers and he sent me exactly what we agreed upon.

I have to say, unless you do scienitific genetic testing on an individual Indigo pair to prove otherwise - the captive Indigo gene pool is so small, that most indigos ARE somewhat gentically related. People breeding unrelated adults together, even if they are from different lines and different parents, are probably still somewhat related. So, breeding two "unrelated " adults together and producing babies with split scales is probably still a result of inbreeding. In the wild inbreeding could easily happen with the bifercated non continous usable habit and limited numbers of indigos. The question is how does it effect the livelihood of the animal that has a few split scales it....it most cases a few split scales probably doesn't effect the animal. But the next step of inbreeding is dwarfism, heart issues, ect that have happened in indogos and does effect the animal.

I have one black phase eastern female (2015) from Black Pearl. Awesome snake, scales are 'perfect' and I am very happy. I also request numerous pics to the point I'm anal about it, and John was professional about it. He is upfront about the issues with eastern indigos. His service is excellent and he is always there to share his insight when needed. It seems you are doing the right thing and doing all your homework. Good luck from whomever you get an eastern from and I hope it's perfect for you in every way.

I have not purchased from John but he answered all of my questions I had emailed him very promptly and politely. That alone casts a good light on someone. As far as inbreeding, the fact is with many reptiles that are protected or rare in captivity, it's going to be somewhat inbred. If that causes severe disorders, of course the line should be stopped. If it causes a minor cosmetic issue, I would rather have that than no access to the animals at all. IMO people who complain from the sidelines are not the ones who are going to push herpetoculture forward and I tend to ignore them.