To all that take the time to read this:
This is my opinion on what I heard on NPR this Wednesday morning. Below I've included the transcript and I've added critique and commentary throughout. At times I was frustrated enough that I resorted to sarcasm. I hope those portions are obvious.My comment are marked by my name [Joey]. I've also added this as notes on my FB page.
Overall I thought it was a poorly conducted panel that needed a critique. My intent is not to start an all out war with USARK or Andrew Wyatt. I in no way intended my comments to be used as ammo against Andrew though some of my statements may be seen as quite harsh. I am part of the reptile community. I thoroughly enjoy being so. I want to keep this hobby as do most other reptile enthusiasts. I think this panel discussion went poorly. I honestly think our next step is to not go at each others' throats. If we disband and splinter, then we'll have no front to face the next round of attacks. Instead we need to pool our resources and combine our cause with the cause of other animal keepers. This includes exotic mammal keepers, fish enthusiasts, bird enthusiasts. We should even look to dairy farmers, poultry farmers, etc. This is not a call to disband, nor a call to ditch Andrew or USARK, but the exact opposite. I am putting this out there so that people can see that we cannot do this alone as a reptile community. We need as reptile keepers to work together with other organizations to find a reasonable solution to the current problem perpetuated by HSUS and their allies. We need to show that responsible keepers don't need legislation to dictate their every move and decision.
Host:
The panel began with a question to Wayne and ended with a statement by Wayne. Each statement previous to a caller or commercial was also by Wayne. Weren't there other members of the panel? Perhaps the moderator/host should rethink how she does a panel. You'd think with an issue as divided as this she would have given them equal time to voice their side. Instead she acted as a cheerleader for HSUS and Wayne.
Wayne:
It saddens me the weak tactics used by HSUS. He grouped all exotics into one term, but kept his definition clouded by only focusing on the less commonly kept animals. He kept complaining that it was a cost issue. Funny he didn't mention anything about the costs incurred by our less scary pets (i.e., cats and dogs). Wayne used the same fanatical, sensationalist arguments that are so common nowadays. Sad thing is I think he believes he's "fighting the good fight" so to speak. Regardless of whether he thinks he is actually worthwhile or whether he is just doing this for the cash and publicity, he presented himself well. He was articulate. This was not his first rodeo. He definitely won this debate. Likewise he had a fan base in the studio and the host did all she could to give him the last word and prevent anyone from questioning his intentions. Not very unbiased and I have since lost the last bit of respect I had for NPR due to this. This was an advertisement for HSUS. Andrew and Zuzana didn't stand a chance. Apparently the "panel" wasn't there for a discussion of facts. It was to portray exotic animal keepers in a negative light.
Zuzana:
She did a great job. The few times she was allowed to speak she did so very well. Her points were valid. I think if she were allowed to speak, she would have given Wayne a run for his (and all the private donors') money. Instead she was interrupted and ignored for most the program. Zuzana deserves a round of applause. She represented the hobby as best she could given the poor situation she was given.
To Andrew.
I'm going to be more tough on you since you were chosen by NPR to represent the reptile hobby which I am a part. So in effect you represented me. I thereby hold you to a higher standard than the others. I'm not trying to make this personal, but instead a general criticism of what I heard this morning.
To put it politely you had your backside handed to you. You were walking into fatal terrain to borrow from Sun-Tzu. You should have known this and prepared better. You stumbled through all your responses. Wayne has the internet. It is probably eco friendly and runs on the blood of vegans, but he has the internet. He sees the rhetoric regurgitated by angry hobbyists online. Those work well when one keeper is venting to another. You were talking to the enemy. They won't buy it. The survey talk earlier was a waste of time. This was your chance to pick at the holes in the arguments. Don't go for the whole organization at once. Every time Wayne baited you, you went for it. Likewise he opened himself up many times and you didn't quite seize the opportunity. Instead of representing us well, you buggered up. Zuzana may have done more to show that we can act responsibly. You seemed like you just wanted to punch Wayne in the face. (Not a bad idea in theory, but in practice can only lead to problems). If you're going to represent the hobby you need to show what we're really about. Show them that it isn't the hype spewed forth from HSUS. This was a definite win for Wayne. Luckily, not many people listen to NPR. It was a learning experience. Hopefully one where you walked away from it and realized that the reptile community can't do this alone. But that is okay. It also showed that there are other responsible exotic pet keepers that are fighting a similar battle. Time to unite more than just the snake keepers. Giant pythons and big cats are an easy target. Get exotic owners from all branches in on it and there will be a bigger force to go after the sensationalist hype set forward by Wayne and his cronies. There are also agricultural groups. Poultry farmers, dairy farmers, fish keepers, small mammal enthusiasts, etc. If organizations worked together, we could possibly accomplish something.
Exotic Animal Industry in the U.S.
Transcript for:
Exotic Animal Industry in the U.S.
MS. SUSAN PAGE
11:06:32
Thanks for joining us. I'm Susan Page of USA Today, sitting in for Diane Rehm. Diane is at a memorial service for Tony Blankley, a dear friend and frequent guest on "The Diane Rehm Show." Last fall, Ohio Police killed 49 exotic animals set free by their distraught owner. A report out this week says Burmese pythons released into the Florida Everglades are causing severe declines in the regions mammals. This type of reports has brought scrutiny to the exotic pets industry.
MS. SUSAN PAGE
11:07:03
Joining us in the studio to discuss this issue, Wayne Pacelle of the Humane Society of the United States and Andrew Wyatt of the United States Association of Reptile Keepers. And joining us from a studio in Las Vegas, Zuzana Kukol of a group called Responsible Exotic Animal Ownership. Welcome to "The Diane Rehm Show."
MR. WAYNE PACELLE
11:07:24
Thank you.
MR. ANDREW WYATT
11:07:25
Thank you very much.
PAGE
11:07:26
We're going to invite our...
MS. ZUZANA KUKOL
11:07:26
Thank you.
PAGE
11:07:27
We're going to invite our listeners to join our conversation just a bit later. You can call us at 800-433-8850. Send us an email at
drshow@wamu.org or you can find us on Facebook or Twitter. Well, Wayne, first of all, how many exotic pets are there? How big a thing is this across the country?
PACELLE
11:07:48
Well, we're not really sure. And there are so many different species of exotic pets. There are people who keep lions, tigers, mountain lions and other big cats. There are people who keep bears. The man in Ohio Terry Thompson had -- there were 18 Bengal tigers, 17 lions, there were grizzly bears, almost all of them killed when he let them out. There are people who have all sorts of primates. Some people still have chimpanzees even though they're an endangered species in the wild.
[Joey] Leopard Geckos, Goldfish, Hamsters, Parakeets, etc. are all exotic pets.
[Joey] Chimps aren't endangered due to the pet trade. Habitat destruction, poaching for trophies and bush meat are the reason for the decline. The pet trade is funded primarily through captive breeding efforts and the only hope some of these species have is limited to the captive attempts to keep them going. The AZA zoos aren't enough to keep a viable population around. They're limited on time, money, and space. The private and commercial sectors can be a useful ally in keeping these animals from extinction. See Alligators if you doubt this. There are other examples in the pet trade as well. Try as you want to ban the US pet trade, the foreign countries will still export skins, meat, and habitat will continue to be destroyed. How about those nice canals running across Florida. Makes for a nice dry roadway, but does much more damage than a Burmese python.
PACELLE
11:08:20
There are folks who have large constricting snakes, whether it's green anacondas or Burmese pythons. There are people who have alligators, crocodiles. And I think, you know, there are people who actually are quite interested in these animals. They're drawn to the exotic. They're drawn to these animals for some reason. But we don't think they should have them in their households as pets. Certain animals are domesticated. Dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years.
[Joey] Domestic animals came from somewhere. It wasn't just "poof" you're domesticated. People are drawn to exotics for many of the same reasons they're drawn to ballet, music, or certain colors. It is personal preference. I don't like mammalian pets. They are not interesting to me. It has nothing to do with their nearly cosmopolitan distribution. It is just that I don't prefer them.
PACELLE
11:08:48
They belong in our homes. They enjoy our companionship. And generally speaking, they don't pose enormous risks to us and they are capable of being trained and of being obedient to some degree. Tigers, you know, are not that way, and so many of these animals are large, powerful predatory animals. They don't belong in our homes, not just as a matter of safety for us, for safety for them, too. There are no good outcomes for these animals. They almost always end up injured or dead or relinquished.
[Joey] As with any animal there is a risk. There is also a risk when skateboarding, skiing, driving a car, shooting a gun, playing soccer, etc. There are risks. That is where responsibility comes in. Your statements (Wayne) show how complacent we are with domestic animals yet the statistics show that people are much more likely to be bitten or worse by your neighbors dog than you are by your neighbors leopard gecko. I remember being bitten by a neighbors free roaming dog. My sister has a scar on her face where a neighbors cocker spaniel bit her when she was younger. I would not be surprised if many have similar stories and could detail how another person's (not one kept in their home) domestic animal caused them harm.
Most exotic animal owners know there is a risk involved. And most are responsible. A few bad seeds that don't care about the laws anyway are being used as the exemplar of the exotic animal hobby.
PAGE
11:09:24
Now, Zuzana, you are an exotic pet owner yourself. Is that right?
KUKOL
11:09:28
Yes.
PAGE
11:09:28
And so, tell us what animals you have yourself?
KUKOL
11:09:32
We own exotic cats, everything from small bobcat to Africa lion. Then we have wolf hybrids and we have reptiles.
PAGE
11:09:40
So, we heard Wayne kind of make the case for raising concerns about these exotic pets. Why do you want to have them? What's the appeal?
KUKOL
11:09:50
The question is why not? If we asked American citizens can choose what type of domestic pet we can have, what car to drive, what house to buy, why should exotic animals be treated any different?
[Joey] The question is a matter of personal preference as stated above. Why do I prefer a 4-door sedan and my brother a 2 door coupe. Why does my wife cringe at the thought of a station wagon. It is a matter of personal preference. Many would not question why you choose a black lab over a springer spaniel, but as soon as you say you would rather have a cornsnake instead of a poodle it becomes odd.
PAGE
11:10:02
Well, Andrew Wyatt, I know that you have some exotic pets yourself. What do you have?
WYATT
11:10:07
Well, I don't keep many animals anymore because of my work for our trade association and travel. So, I have surrogates keeping the animals that I used to keep.
[Joey] This was a big of a waste of air time. You have a limited amount of time to address an issue very important to the reptile community. Many see you as an important spokesperson. Choose your words carefully and when you speak publicly get your words out and make them count. You're representing a hobby. If they can disconnect you from the hobby, you are no longer seen as a valid member or spokesperson. It is the classic us versus them scenario and they just took you from the "us" (reptile keepers) group.
PAGE
11:10:26
What did you use to have?
WYATT
11:10:27
I have had a number. You know, there's a little bit of disconnect here. Not all reptiles are exotic. Much of the trade in reptiles in the United States are animals that are native to the United States, like milk snakes and king snakes, which I've worked with all of those and as well as boas and pythons.
[Joey] Answer the question. She wasn't asking you to define exotics. She was asking what exotic animals you keep. To those of us in the industry it means non-native. To those outside the industry it means not domesticated (i.e., dogs, cats, possibly some small rodents, and goldfish). So instead of stating your claims this early on, answer the question and don't waste time. Also, work on your public speaking skills. All the "uh" and "umm" fillers are a bit distracting and make you look like you're losing already.
PAGE
11:10:53
Now, we've seen this report just out a few days ago about Burmese pythons released into the Florida Everglades, causing some ecological problems. Tell us about this study. What did it conclude?
WYATT
11:11:07
Are you speaking of the recent study that was just published?
[Joey] She just said it was the one from a few days ago. Please.
PAGE
11:11:09
That's right. The one published just, I guess, on Monday.
WYATT
11:11:12
Well, I think that the press and the media got quite carried away with the press release and actually reported a number of things that are not detailed in the paper in the paper at all. They're trying to draw some direct correlation of Burmese pythons in the Everglades and the decline in mammal populations. And in the paper, there is no direct causation linked to the Burmese python. It's speculative. And there are numerous studies out there that have been done in regards to mammal declines and bird declines in the Everglades that are linked back not to the Burmese python but back to hydrology and high levels of mercury.
[Joey] Mercury….seriously you're going with that one? How about we talk real problems to the everglades? Here, I'll put them in list form to help:
1: Habitat destruction. The biggest threat to wildlife everywhere.
2: Feral cats: Great predators. They can live in both tropical and cold climates. They have long been thought to be linked with the declines of native fauna.
3: Feral pigs: Competition is tough. Only so many animals can live in a given area and when pigs are out competing the native fauna there is nowhere to go but out.
Any of these would have been better. Bad choice there. This should have been rehearsed. You should have seen these questions coming.
PAGE
11:12:03
Do you think that -- now, first of all, how do these pythons from Burma get in to the Florida Everglades?
WYATT
11:12:09
Back in the early '90s, there was a facility on the edge of the Everglades that was devastated and destroyed by Hurricane Andrew, releasing a bunch of Burmese pythons that were pretty much all genetically the same. That's why you see when you look at the genetics of the pythons that are feral in the Everglades, they all come from the same genetic stock. They're virtually identical and that was
because of a massive release of very similar animals during Hurricane Andrew.
PAGE
11:12:43
So you think they're not a problem, it's not a problem to have these pythons in the Everglades?
[Joey] That is not what he said. You asked where they came from. He told you, then you extrapolated this to mean he was saying something else. You bias is already showing.
WYATT
11:12:48
Well, I think that the pythons in the Everglades, as well as other more invasive and more dangerous animals to the environment or the Everglades are a problem. You know, feral cats have wreaked havoc on not only birds and reptiles and small mammals, but they've spread disease. There's millions of them in every single state in the union, yet there doesn't seem to be quite the concern of the impact, the massive impact that they have not only all over the United States, but all over the world. Now, the pythons are certainly -- alien pythons in the Everglades are certainly a problem, but it has been limited to three counties in the very southern tip of Florida.
PAGE
11:13:34
So this study was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. It's got a fair amount of attention. Wayne, what's your view of its conclusions?
PACELLE
11:13:41
Well, let me just say, Susan, again, thank you for having me from the Humane Society of the United States on. And it's good to be on with Andrew and Zuzana. And I just want listeners to understand, Andrew and Zuzana are advocates of the exotic pet trade. They have fought regulations at the federal level and the state level to restrict private ownership of these animals. So, a lot of titles are a little confusing. Like USARK, Animal Reptile Keepers, that sounds like a nice thing.
[Joey] Basically this is Wayne letting everyone know that Andrew and Zuzana are the "bad guys" to the HSUS and all the simple minds that couldn't figure out what he was getting at should boo at the evil animal keepers.
Take note to the very common and belittling trick used here. He called USARK, the "animal reptile keepers". By calling them the wrong name he is saying that they are not even worth knowing the appropriate name. It is a common method used to disrespect an opponent or an opponent's organization. Andrew, here is where you should jump in and correct him…Andrew??????
[Joey] Wayne, why don't you mention Zuzana's organization? That one doesn't sound too bad. In fact in the title it states responsible ownership.
PACELLE
11:14:07
These are exotic animal owners who want to protect the right of private citizens to have dangerous predatory animals in their homes, even if they're causing ecological havoc, even if they're causing public safety threats, and even if the animals themselves are enormous victims of this trade. Now this report that just came out, it was just reported on in the Washington Post yesterday and in other papers throughout the country is devastating, just on the single question of the ecological impact of one species of large constricting snakes, the Burmese pythons.
[Joey] Nothing in that article directly linked the pythons to the problem. Need I remind you cats are established too. Pythons are just an easy target. It is like picking on the wimpy kid in the playground. You make a lot of claims here, but you offer no substance.
PACELLE
11:14:37
The report said that these scientists, again, these are top scientists in the field reporting in a peer-reviewed journal said that populations of raccoons in the areas where Burmese pythons are dropped 99 percent compared to 13 or 14 years ago before pythons colonized the Everglades. Possums also dropped 99 percent and bobcats 87.5 percent. Marsh cottontail rabbits as well as foxes were not seen at all.
[Joey] "Top Scientists"? What are their credentials? They don't have names? What is the impact factor of the journals they published in? Was it other scientists that are current in the research that reviewed the article? Or is it hack wanna-be scientists that graduated with a B.S. and have no real backing in scientific study? How does habitat destruction play into this? Did they see the snakes eating them? Have stomach content analyses been done? Or did they just find less mammals and assume the snakes did it? Gator populations have grown significantly haven't they? Perhaps the gators have had an effect? Do cats eat these animals? Do cats compete with these animals if they don't eat them directly?
PACELLE
11:15:06
Now, let's remember that the South Florida Water Management District proposed listing nine species of large constricting snakes on the list of injurious species, only because of the threat on the ecology of Florida and other southern states. USARK and other organizations fought this, delayed the enactment of it, and the Obama administration caved in and listed only four of the nine species that the scientists from the U.S. Geological Service said should be listed.
PACELLE
11:15:39
This report makes it plain where the right and wrong positions were. This is a devastating circumstance for the Everglades, where our nation has put billions of dollars to protect one of the most sensitive and critical habitats in the southern tier of the United States.
PAGE
11:15:54
Andrew, we saw this decision by the Obama administration in the middle of January to ban imports of four snake species. Was that the right thing to do?
WYATT
11:16:04
Well, you know, there's certainly not the science there to support that decision out of hand. The scientists from around the world have criticized that work as not scientific and not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory changes. They've had a lot of problems with the science. Their data set is not accurate. The conclusions drawn are quite big leaps. And that's one of the problems they've had is that they have not had strong basis for science to push the rule forward.
[Joey] No I don't know. Don't tell your listeners that they know. It is degrading. It is used as a filler, but it is not needed.
WYATT
11:16:48
It's also important to remember, Mr. Pacelle says that we've spent a lot of time advocating for the responsible ownership and trade as well as animal welfare of reptiles. That is true. But our annual budget is literally just a fraction of his postage stamp budget. And the fact is he spent somewhere in the neighborhood -- over the period of 2005 to 2009, he spent over $17 million lobbying Congress to advocate for...
PACELLE
11:17:27
Animal welfare.
[Joey] Andrew, you're setting precedent here. If he interrupts you and you allow him, you're going to get stomped.
WYATT
11:17:28
...limited animal ownership, you know? And it's...
[Joey] You know?
PACELLE
11:17:32
It's actually much broader than that, Andrew. It's anti-dog fighting, it's combating puppy mills, it's combating factory farming. It's restricting private ownership of primates and other animals. I mean, let's remember, Susan, you know, we're not just talking about snakes. I mean, Andrew is a snake enthusiast. I mean, that's fair to say that you're a snake enthusiast.
[Joey] And the turnover goes to Wayne. Andrew is now on defense….lets see if he can pull it out.
WYATT
11:17:51
Yes.
PACELLE
11:17:53
We're talking about a larger category of animals. You know, when we're talking about chimpanzees, the woman in Connecticut had her face bitten off and her digits bitten off by the these animals.
WYATT
11:18:04
Well, the...
[Joey] Seriously host? You're going to cut him off right here?
PAGE
11:18:04
We're going to take a short break. And when we come back, we'll talk more about the laws in states that restrict these kind of animals and the states that choose not to restrict them. We'll take your calls, 1-800-433-8850 and read some of your emails. Shoot us an email,
drshow@wamu.org. Stay with us.
[Joey] Want to see if they're biased? Notice the break happens just before Andrew had a chance to respond. The ref seems to have an opinion in this and nothing is going to change that. I'm hoping Andrew saw that on the way in. So far Wayne has successfully painted exotic pet owners as the bad guys. He's labeled all non domestic pets as dangerous, and Andrew as an opponent to the legislation that is trying to "protect" people. I don't agree with Wayne at all, but so far Andrew is stammering through this without much hope for victory. Sadly, very sadly, this segment goes to Wayne…..with a little help from well timed interruptions and a commercial break after he mentions a gruesome attack by a chimp. NPR's way of saying: "Here picture this faceless woman for a bit and then we'll get back to the snake keeper and cat keeper and let them try to wiggle their way out of this one. Thanks NPR. Clowns.
PAGE
11:19:39
Welcome back. I'm Susan Page of USA Today, sitting in for Diane Rehm. We're talking this hour about the issue of exotic pet ownership in this country. And we're joined now by phone from Dayton, OH by Tim Harrison. He's with a group called Outreach for Animals. He trains first responders on how to deal with exotic pets and their owners. Tim Harrison, thank you so much for joining us.
MR. TIM HARRISON
11:20:01
Thanks for having me.
PAGE
11:20:27
So how did you get interested in this area?
HARRISON
11:20:30
I got interested back when I worked for a veterinarian back in 1970s. We'd go out and every once in a while somebody'd get a python in their backyard or a bear tied up in the back -- you know, back in somebody's barn. But after 1995 it like exploded when reality TV started. Everybody started bringing the most dangerous creatures in their home 'cause they wanted to imitate what they saw on TV. Monkey see, monkey do. Like I say, Susan, remember 101 Dalmatians. When that came on everybody bought a Dalmatian.
[Joey] Yes everyone I know had a bear and a python in their backyards. I was one of those that went and bought a bear when reality TV "like exploded" and like OMG!!
PAGE
11:20:53
You know, I know that you were involved in the response in Zanesville, Ohio, that terrible incident last fall where dozens of exotic animals were released by their distraught owner. Tell us what happened there from your perspective.
HARRISON
11:21:07
From my perspective, a gentleman got out of prison and he decided -- he was distraught, there was no question about that -- he decided to turn all his -- you know, 50 of the most dangerous creatures on the planet loose. And it was right next to Zanesville, Ohio, right next to major Interstate 70. Turned them loose, cut the cages so you couldn't put them back in. And then he poured blood over his own body, laid down and shot himself in the head. So he actually set up a semi-booby trap for the first responding officers to come out. They had to go in and get him so they had to actually shoot the animals to get to his location.
[Joey] A tragic story. Now of all those bears and snakes in people backyards, how often does the owner let all their pets go and cap themselves. Surely you're not going to pigeon-hole every exotic pet owner due to one bonehead's actions?
PAGE
11:21:36
Well, that was a terrible story. In Ohio what's been the aftermath of that case?
[Joey] Oooooh. Building suspense…..I wish we could play ominous music at this point. Duh duh duh.
HARRISON
11:21:41
Well, they're working right now -- Governor Strickland actually had his very strong executive order that was supposed to have been signed May 1, 2011. But Governor Kasich, the new governor came in, surrounded himself with the wrong people, believed the hype that you're getting from the other two guests you have on your show that nothing's going on out here, there's no problems, just leave it alone. And he ended up dropping the executive order.
[Joey] Oh. You are going to put all under that same category. Worried about a string of copy cats shooting themselves after letting their pets go? You know it happens so often I can see the need. (Here comes the sarcasm) I'm sure if this guy had laws preventing the animals, he would have been released from jail, got a job at the local neighborhood Wal-Mart, and everything would be right in the world now.
HARRISON
11:22:01
And the sad part about that is now he's got his arm almost twisted behind his back. He has to do something now. The whole world is watching what's going on in Ohio.
[Joey] And who is doing the proverbial twisting? Wayne, care to weigh in on that?
PAGE
11:22:08
For Governor Kasich.
HARRISON
11:22:10
That's correct. That's exactly right.
PAGE
11:22:11
Yeah. And so in -- for first responders what advice do you give them when it comes to dealing with exotic animals when they get a call?
HARRISON
11:22:19
Well first of all, there's no way to teach anybody any of this stuff. I teach for Homeland Security out of Texas A & M College at a place called Disaster City, the top training facility in the world for governors and, you know, government officials and fire chiefs and police chiefs. It's impossible to teach a group of people like that how to, you know, go into or respond to a home. You've got to remember, every time there's a dangerous exotic animal situation, like the chimpanzee in Connecticut or me catching a cougar in downtown Dayton, it's always the cops that are first, always.
HARRISON
11:22:46
Remember the San Francisco Zoo situation where the tiger got out, killed the boy, seriously injured the other two kids there. And it was the police they called in to have help. So when the professionals have a hard time handling these animals why was it an untrained people should be allowed to have them in their homes?
[Joey] Define untrained? Many in the exotic animal industry have been keeping and breeding these animals far longer than many zookeepers. Just because you're a zoo doesn't automatically mean you know all. Most zookeepers I've met aren't biologists. They're animal caregivers. Just like the ones that walk your dog at the vet's office, only zookeepers deal with exotic animals.
Does a zoo make you a trained professional overnight? Perhaps a trained person needs to have a degree? Which level do you think is necessary? Masters? Ph.D.? Most zoos only require a B.S. or A.S. You can attain those degrees without ever caring for an animal.
So I ask again. What is considered professional?
PAGE
11:23:01
And why do you think they want to have them in their homes? I know you just talk with exotic pet owners when you're called in to deal with situations that become troublesome. What do you think the appeal is?
HARRISON
11:23:13
I think the main appeal is that they see it on TV -- now this is an American phenomenon. I travel all over the world and lecture. You don't see it in India, you don't see it in Africa, you don't see it in Australia. They respect their wildlife. We've got a situation here. We have TV shows constantly bombarding people telling them it's okay to bring a surgically altered animal as you see on TV or a medicated one on there that's taken something that'll take the edge off.
[Joey] Wrong. Australia has a young but growing pet trade. As does Africa. And it is very alive and well in Asia and Europe. Your comment is a flat out lie or you're just not looking around very far. Visit any of the online fora. You'll find members from all over the world. Sorry, but you're speaking out an orifice other than your mouth on that one. Try again. Also what is this about "surgically altered animal[s]" and "something that'll take the edge off"? Once again see which orifice is making noise. Those practices are not as common as you're making them sound.
HARRISON
11:23:33
And that's what they think the tiger's going to be like when they buy it. Bring it home and they get a baptism in reality real quick, Susan, that this animal doesn't act like the one on TV. It's got its claws and it's going to hurt me. And the sad part about that is you can buy a tiger, Susan, but you can't buy common sense.
[Joey] Probably the worst one liner ever. This guy has failed to impress me.
PAGE
11:23:48
And, Tim Harrison, one last thing. What -- you've been involved in so many of these cases, what's the most dangerous animal that you've been involved in trying to bring under control?
HARRISON
11:23:58
Yeah, I've lost friends from -- one friend was killed by a Burmese Python. I had another friend killed by a venomous Rhinoceros Viper in his own home here in the State of Ohio. But the most dangerous, Susan, is chimpanzees by far. And I just helped remove a chimpanzee here from the Centerville area of Ohio. So the sad part about it is they are out there -- Wayne is absolutely right, they're out there. But one thing you've got to remember, they're legal, they're cheap and they're easy to get. You get them off the auctions. You can get them off the internet, anything you want. You can get a King Cobra to your house within 48 hours.
[Joey] Define cheap? Have you seen some of the prices these things bring in? I'm not sure how much they're paying you, but let me know when you find a "cheap" primate. Or are you using a simpleton's tactic of lumping all together in order to get your sensationalist point across. They're (leopard geckos) cheap, so we need to ban them (chimps). Ah. I see.
PAGE
11:24:25
All right. Tim Harrison, thank you so much for joining us.
[Joey] How is giving the first half of the show to someone that has very little education worthwhile in this debate. It was just there to present the exotic pet trade in a bad light. Lets talk about something that is beneficial from the pet trade. Lets talk about how we're producing these animals that don't have native homes anymore. Their homes were destroyed by none other than our own species. We can also mention the skin and meat trade as that is also having an effect on the animal's in their native habitat. If only there was a way we could keep and preserve these animals. Keep them alive until people figure out we need to stop destroying their habitat. Oh wait. There is. It is called the pet trade. There are boneheads, but the vast majority care about the animals. More on this later.
HARRISON
11:24:28
Yeah, thank you. And I want everybody to remember too, just let these animals be animals. You know, let's not try to make them into something that they're not.
[Joey] There goes my dreams of a penguin army. Marching in unison behind me. Oh well.
PAGE
11:24:34
Thanks very much. Tim Harrison from Dayton, Ohio of Outreach for Animals. Well, Zuzana, I want to give you a chance to respond to the point he made that it's dangerous and inappropriate to have these exotic animals in people's homes. How would you respond?
[Joey] So after 24 minutes finally want your other guest to speak. How considerate. I'm sure you're going to give her 20 some odd minutes right???? It seems only fair.
KUKOL
11:24:50
Well, I would like to provide some statistics. In U.S.A. on average three people get killed each year by all exotic animals. That's from pets to zoos, three per year. Horses kill 20 to 25 people, dogs up to 30 people. Traffic accidents kill 45,000 people each year. I don't see that as the public safety issue here. And most of these people who are killed by exotic animals are the owners, which means it's occupational or hobby hazard. It's not a public safety issue.
[Joey] Great point. She should joing USARK….or better yet, all these smaller organizations need to get past their "type A" personality barriers and work together to educate and fight pointless laws.
KUKOL
11:25:22
And they got into the chimp incident. Nobody in the recent history got killed by a non-human primate in the U.S.A. It was an unfortunate incident but this woman went there voluntarily. This chimp was running free at the local shopping mall. The woman went there. She knew that she -- she took the chance. But the first face transplant occurred in France and it was due to the puppy chewing the woman's face off. But nobody's screaming to ban puppies because it's not an exotic animal.
[Joey] Another score!
KUKOL
11:25:55
It's not about danger. It's about political agenda to ban exotic animals from private possession.
PACELLE
11:26:01
It is indeed a (unintelligible) ...
[Joey] Mr. Pacelle. Did your mother teach you anything? Let the woman finish. The nerve.
KUKOL
11:26:03
I wasn't done.
Hahahahaha!
PACELLE
11:26:05
Susan just waved me on (unintelligible) ...
[Joey] So Susan is directing you to speak? You're a puppet? We need Jeff Dunham. He's good with puppets.
PAGE
11:26:05
Well, let's (unintelligible) Zuzana, good to hear your perspective. I wanted to give Wayne a chance to respond.
[Joey] Buy she literally just mentioned she wasn't done before he interrupted. An unbiased moderator/host should let her continue if time limitations were not put on comments and if the speaker was staying on topic. That is unless you have an opinion on the matter and want arguments contrary to your position to be silenced as soon as possible. Nice job NPR. I'm sure you're going to afford the same courtesy to your other guests and make sure they have a chance to respond right? (Wrong!)
PACELLE
11:26:12
Oh, it is indeed a political agenda to stop private citizens who typically have no idea what they're getting into from obtaining these animals. And again we can isolate one issue as public safety or ecology or animal welfare. But when you roll it all up, when you aggregate all of these compelling issues there is just no good reason for society to allow people to do this. They may want to do this very desperately.
[Joey] Most people have no idea what they're getting into when they purchase most things. Cell phones, cars, McDonalds, etc. With freedom comes responsibility. Most are responsible. Some are not, but to punish all those for a few people making poor decisions is poor practice. If someone wraps their sports car around a pole, should we ban all sports cars? I'm sure people have done hair-brained stunts on ATVs. Should we ban all of those? I'm sure kids have done dumb things on swing sets. We should ban those too.
PACELLE
11:26:39
You know, the dog fighters we deal with or the puppy millers that we deal with, they want to do what they want to do desperately but society balances the various interests here. And when you look at just the cost issue, I mean, what is the cost to society when you have basically eliminated a class of medium-sized and small mammals in the Everglades after we spent billions of dollars.
[Joey] Will someone please say something here. Dog fights and puppy mills do not represent the general pet keeping public. Some people (Vick, DMX, etc.) make stupid decisions. Most do not. Here Wayne once again is using his fanaticism to sell his point. And if everyone sits back and takes it then he'll win….Andrew? Zuzana?….Bueller?
PACELLE
11:27:01
Or Tim Harrison whom you had on from Ohio, who's really one of the nation's leading experts. The guy's on the front like, he's putting his life in danger responding to these cases because first responders have no idea how to deal with a chimp or a tiger or other animals that are at large because you have a class of reckless exotic animal owners in this country. And of course, Susan, we do have policies. Eighteen states have adopted laws to forbid private ownership of large categories of dangerous exotic animals. Other states regulate it. Seven states have no rules whatever.
[Joey] Experts on what? I heard nothing from that 20 minute dialogue (monologue?) that convinced me he had an ounce of knowledge in this field. In fact he sounded a bit ignorant. A class or a few? How many pythons are in captivity? How many are reckless? Expand that to all reptile keepers? Now lets include all exotic pet owners. Even your dentist with the reef tank in his office. I guarantee reef fish are not native to states like Nebraska. Is your dentist reckless? I guess if he's like the dentist on Little Shop of Horrors he'd be reckless, but you saw what Seymour and Audrey II did to him. I digress. The stupidity of this first half hour, Zuzana's comments EXCLUDED, has left me with little to focus on.
PACELLE
11:27:35
We at the Humane Society of the United States are working with first responders, we're working with environmentalists, we're working with responsible animal owners to say no, this is out of bounds. Let's stop this madness. And Zuzana and others may think it's great to have an African lion in their backyard but we don't have absolute freedom in society. Especially when it comes to animals who are vulnerable.
[Joey] Responsible animal owners? Who are these people? I'm guessing none of them own reptiles? It isn't absolute freedom. It is freedom with responsibility. If it is a public hazard the government should step in. If it is not a public hazard they should stay back. The exotic animals aren't a public hazard. They may pose a potential hazard for the keeper, but that is not reason enough to ban them. What we don't need is special interest groups who feel they're on a mission to stop everything they don't like or understand. You're stereotyping a large group of people and using terms to get a reaction. Remember most "exotic" pets are fish, birds, small mammals, and small reptiles.
[Joey] Also, Andrew take note. He keeps mentioning his group. Advertising. Also he keeps mentioning calling you guys by name. He has done this before. He knows what he'd doing and how to come out on top.
PAGE
11:27:55
Let's go to the phones and let some of our listeners join our conversation. Let's go to Chet first. He's calling us from Georgia. Chet, hi, you're on the air.
[Joey] Yes lets go to the phones. Since you haven't given Andrew or Zuzana any time to respond to Wayne's claims, the phones seem like a good place to turn. Clown!
CHET
11:28:04
Hi. Good morning. Thank you for taking the call.
PAGE
11:28:06
Yes, welcome.
CHET
11:28:09
Well, I don't even know where to start. I'm the executive director of the Georgia Wildlife Rescue Association. Our main focus is to save Georgia's native wildlife. We spend a great deal of time dealing with exotics. And since I was a small child I've had pythons and boas and anacondas. I have 11 right now. All the snakes that I have now actually came as a result of either being captured or from being released or escaped. And I've completely changed my point of view there.
CHET
11:28:45
Next week, we're actually going to try -- we have a warm spell right now, we're actually trying to find a snake on the Withlacoochee River that has been described by numerous people that -- and we know it's either an anaconda or a python. And we're not talking the Everglades, we're talking South Georgia in February. So I take issue with the trying to contain it to the southern tip of Florida because I believe with global warming, which is a whole other issue, they're moving further north.
[Joey] Riiiiiiight.
Catch it first then identify it. All you have said so far is here say and holds no merit. Many of us in the industry have heard some exaggerated reports of "giant snakes" in a pool only to find an 18 inch garter snake swimming for dear life with little chance of escape on its own. There is another threat to people and wildlife. We should ban pools. Only certified government funded pools since we know the government does a great job of managing things….like the budget.
[Joey] Once again Wayne's friends have used a weak tool. They present "data" that has no backing. He's sure a snake he has not seen but only been told about is either a python or anaconda. He didn't tell us how. Did it have spots like the anaconda? I'm sure you're aware that many water snakes in that area also have spots. Did it have stripes down the back like the burmese? I'm sure you're also aware that many native garter snakes have stripes. And spots. But you've seen the snake right? Was it the size of the animal that gave it away? People are typically so accurate when describing the size of snakes. Especially people that are afraid of them.
(If you can't catch the sarcasm here, you should probably grab a snuggle blankie and find a quiet corner to hide in and rock yourself to sleep.)
PAGE
11:29:17
Well, now you've had these exotic snakes yourself, but rescue snakes I guess you'd call them, the way we talk about rescue dogs. What do you think about people who want to buy these snakes and other reptiles because they're interested in them, because they think that's a great hobby? What do you think about that?
[Joey] So this guy is qualified. How did he get qualified. Let me guess. He's been keeping them for years. Is he the only one qualified? He mentioned he had a few himself. Why should he be allowed to gain the knowledge and experience by keeping them while others are refused?
CHET
11:29:39
There may be some middle-of-the-road solution or compromise with snakes. But the problem here is when you're talking about the situation like you had in Ohio, that's something that's ridiculous. When it comes to pythons, right now anybody with a kid can go in a store and buy this squirmy little snake that's going to turn out to eventually be 12 to, you know, 20-something feet long.
[Joey] It is ridiculous! Some dude shot himself in the face! Very seldom do you hear that and say, "That was not ridiculous at all. In fact that was quite sensible for him to shoot himself in the FACE! That was a well rounded and straight thinking person."
CHET
11:30:05
Myself, I got in a situation several years ago where I could not get one off of me. It was my own fault that it bit me. My problem was even with two adult people helping me I couldn't get it off. I ended up jumping in a swimming pool holding my breath and it actually, you know, released before I did. So it's comical now but it was not then.
[Joey] For someone so experienced you think he'd know that he could have done a number of things to get the snake off of him. For those still following along, here is another list:
1: Pour warm water in the mouth of the snake. Not warm enough to hurt it, but warm enough that it lets go.
2: Pour alcohol in the snake's mouth. Once again not enough to hurt the snake. A small amount works. Though it begs the question why is alcohol near your snakes. Perhaps that is what led to this event in the first place?
3: Bend the tail backwards. This does the trick and quick.
[Joey] Any "experienced" keeper should know this. They should also know that most humans aren't going to be holding their breath for more than four minutes. A Burmese python can. Jumping in the pool is a good way to make a bad situation worse. It is like having marital problems and deciding to have a kid to see if it helps. Plus, a large constrictor well, constricts. How did he get to the pool if a large snake had him. I'm picturing a shirtless redneck in overalls with a large burm attached to his McDonald's diet body rolling toward an above ground pool. You know, the classy kind that they sell at the Wal-Mart. His buddies, that couldn't help earlier, hoisting him in and then taking bets as to who comes up first. I like my version better. It seems more believable as well.
PAGE
11:30:32
I bet it wasn't. Andrew Wyatt, would you like to respond?
[Joey] Oh yea. I forgot you had other guests. Please Andrew they have set you up with so much material to use. Please don't blow it. Please?
WYATT
11:30:35
Yes, I would. Apparently the gentleman is not familiar with the cold weather studies that were done in Florida down there in the Everglades where the University of Florida conducted a study of Burmese Pythons that were radio tagged in Everglades National Park. During the study nine of ten of the radio tagged snakes had come to the cold and that was in the very southern tip of Florida. The tenth did not succumb immediately. They pulled it out and tried to resuscitate it but it eventually died of respiratory infection.
[Joey] A nice start, but you're not matching Wayne's passion. You have to or he'll be seen as the crusader for justice and you'll be left to be the heartless villain.
WYATT
11:31:10
The USDA did a study in Gainesville, Fla. And seven of nine of their study animals died. The only two that didn't, it was because they were given artificial warm refuge. In South Carolina Savannah River Ecological Lab did a study with ten pythons that -- to try and determine whether they could live outside of the State of Florida. All ten succumbed to the cold.
PACELLE
11:31:40
And is this a good thing, Andrew, that animals are freezing to death? I mean, this is one of our points.
[Joey] Whoa….Andrew never said this was a good thing. Don't let him label you as someone that likes to freeze snakes. He's taking you away from your point. Keep your eye on the prize!
WYATT
11:31:45
No, it's not a good thing -- it's not a good thing, Wayne. They shouldn't be there. I don't disagree with that. My point is that trying to scare America into thinking that pythons are going to crawl out of the Everglades and spread across the country eating kindergarteners and family pets on their way...
[Joey] Nice. Focus more on their scare tactics and you'll be good.
PACELLE
11:32:04
No one suggested that. No one suggested that.
[Joey] Actually the whole "threat" to people is exactly that. A suggestion that these snakes if not banned will continue to be an ever increasing threat. Come on Wayne. Don't be a putz.
WYATT
11:32:06
Wayne. Wayne.
[Joey] Andrew, most NPR listeners are against you. The "tsk, tsk" response will not work. Directly mention where he is mistaken. Quickly before he interjects more of his opinion…..
Too late…..
PACELLE
11:32:07
No one suggested that. Point to a single -- what we said is that the U.S. Geological Service did a report in 2009 that said that nine species of large constricting snakes have the capacity or the capability to colonize portions of the southern tier of the United States. That was the U.S. Geological Service.
[Joey] Please Andrew, ask him where this "southern tier" is. Then bring up the faulty science. Don't just label it as faulty, but mention where they used average temps and ignored the extreme temps. Mention that the extremes will kill off the pythons. Please tell him that even a mild winter, a dry summer, or any number of extremes will be enough to keep invasive pythons out of the "southern tier". Andrew?….Bueller?
WYATT
11:32:26
Were you aware of the fact that about a dozen scientists from the National Geographic Society, University of Florida, Texas A & M and others criticized that report as being not scientific and...
PACELLE
11:32:34
Yeah, I'm aware of, you know, anaconda owners and python owners who claim to be scientists saying that they...
[Joey] Names would help here. Positions would as well. Are these scientists currently active in the field? Have they earned their PhD? Or are they USGS wanna-be scientists that take an exam and become a certified "scientist" that knows nothing of the peer-review (the real peer-review) process. Are these journals with a high impact factor? Does anyone on this show even know what that means? Anyone? Bueller?
[Joey] Plus, moderator, why won't you let Andrew speak? True he is fumbling his words like a teenager asking a girl out for the first time, but at least let the man speak. Put a leash on your HSUS dog and let Andrew go uninterrupted for just a short while. He has something to say. That is why he went there.
WYATT
11:32:45
How about the professor of zoological medicine at the University of Georgia?
PACELLE
11:32:45
I'm looking -- yeah, yeah...
WYATT
11:32:48
How about the Herpetologist for the National Geographic Society?
PACELLE
11:32:54
Anyone can (word?) science in favor or against. The preponderance of science says that this is a reckless practice.
[Joey] Someone please question what his "preponderance of science" entails. Don't let him throw out your valid argument and further his ignorant argument by this statement alone. As long as the moderator lets you continue we'll be good. I can't see how someone that is fair and unbiased would not let Andrew reply to this. I'm sure Andrew can mention their shoddy science. Or USGS's use of speculative comments throughout the report of their "study".
PAGE
11:33:02
I'm Susan Page and you're listening to "The Diane Rehm Show." We're taking your calls, 1-800-433-8850. Let's go to San Antonio, Texas and talk to Shannon. Shannon, you're on the air.
[Joey] Seriously? Seriously? You let Wayne make a claim of that nature and leave the opponents no time to respond. Once again, Clown.
SHANNON
11:33:14
Hello, and thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to make a quick statement and then I'll take my statement off the air. But one of your guests stated that why not to people owning wild animals and comparing these animals to living necessities like homes and automobiles that we need. You need shelter, of course. You need a car to get around, to go to your job. And her argument is just absolutely ridiculous. At no time should people, just because they think they can, without exercising good sense, be able to keep these wild animals. They're wild for a reason and this obviously is a major problem on a mass scale.
[Joey] Who are you to determine what "good sense" is? How is this a major problem? Is your neighbor with a pet iguana a major problem that needs attention? What is this major problem?
PAGE
11:33:54
Zuzana -- thank you very much for your call, Shannon. Zuzana, I believe you were the one who made that comment that Shannon was referring to. What would you say to her?
KUKOL
11:34:04
I would say that car is really not a necessity. There are many people in the world who don't own a car. You can always ride a bike or take a bus. Car is a luxury. Pets are a luxury. Whether they are domestic or exotic, pets are a luxury. It's not a necessity. So that's where I go back to my original statement. Why shouldn't we have a choice if we want exotic or domestic pet? Besides, most of the exotic pets are very small. Many of them are small reptiles you can keep in an apartment.
[Joey] Score again for Zuzana!
KUKOL
11:34:35
And most people really don't own pet tigers. It's a myth. Most of the tigers are in commercial licensed, federally licensed USDA facilities. There are maybe 50 tigers that are strictly pets. By pet, I mean is a noncommercial animal. It's (word?) . So...
PAGE
11:34:58
Zuzana, I wonder with the pets that you have, what about if you have a neighbor who has, you know, a little dog or some small children and is worried about safety issues, uncomfortable about being -- living in a neighborhood where there are some exotic pets. Does that situation ever come up for you?
KUKOL
11:35:17
Well, let me explain our situation. We live out in a very rural area on large acreage and our neighbors have large acreages too. Our neighbors love our animals. If our lion doesn't roar one night they call, is he okay? Is he fine? They worry about our animals. We also have an emergency plan with our emergency department. They know the layout of our property. They know what to do. We have three platoons on three different days come over to our property and get training, what to do in case there is a fire or other kind of emergency. So people in our area they know about us, we train them, they are comfortable with us.
PAGE
11:35:56
All right. Wayne, what do you think?
PACELLE
11:35:58
Let me just say that, Susan, we -- at the Humane Society of the United States we maintain a number of wildlife and other animal care facilities. We spend millions of dollars on these facilities a year. We don't want one of these animals. They all come to us or we rescue them from some terrible crisis or circumstance. I travel around the country. I go to big cat rescue groups, I go to chimpanzee facilities. We have thousands of organizations -- truly, thousands of organizations that exist to clean up the messes of people like Zuzana and others who make reckless decisions to acquire these animals.
[Joey] People like Zuzana? Did she give you any hint that she was irresponsible? Why would you accuse her of being such? The emergency plan she detailed sounded very responsible.
PACELLE
11:36:35
They are foisting a problem on the rest of society. And fortunately there's a very generous philanthropic sector in animal welfare, one that's struggling every day of the year to make budget to care for these animals who are all castaways. They're victims of cruelty. They're victims of ignorance that all of us -- none of these groups, Zuzana's REXANO group, which is a group that fights every attempt to restrict exotic animals, Andrew's group, they're not putting money in any significant amount into the care of these animals. It's the humane community that's doing it.
[Joey] I guess a point for Wayne. He successfully built up his organization with saying very little while belittling the others. Dirty, but point for Wayne. I'm sure a fair and unbiased host would allow one of the other guests to respond to this, but I have long since lost hope in our host. Her stance was evident early on. Shame.
PACELLE
11:37:07
And we're the ones driving the policies because we see that it's costing society. It costs in terms of injuries, ecology, most of all animal cruelty because they're almost always victims. And Tim Harrison who was on before will tell you that none of these animals, the tigers and the lions and the chimps ever have it good at the end of the day.
[Joey] Once again you're grouping a large number of animals and keepers into categories that are not well founded. Not all exotics cause or can cause costly injuries. Now all keepers are cruel to their animals. You're painting a picture to appeal the the sympathetic listener that is too dense to realize that your exotic animal crusade is vague enough to include their pet fish, birds, etc. You are careful to mention Burmese pythons, large predatory mammals, and primates in order to purposefully alienate most the listeners. This serves well to let them think that they are not the keepers you're talking about without letting them in on your goals for ending the entire exotic pet trade. Have you once defined an exotic pet? Perhaps the HSUS should put a statement defining this so that we all know their stance. I'm waiting. Wayne.
PAGE
11:37:25
I want to give Andrew Wyatt a chance to respond but we're going to take a quick break first and then we'll come back. We'll take more of your calls, read more of your emails. Stay with us.
[Joey] Nice. You're finally going to let Andrew respond. Now hopefully you're going to let him do so before you go to a break. You did that about twenty minutes ago and I'm sure it wasn't on purpose (sarcasm). At least this time you'll let him respond to the claims made by Wayne before you take a break and inadvertently give Wayne the last word. Wait. You're not going to. You're going to go to commercials again so that when we return it looks like Andrew is in the wrong since he's just attacking Wayne. Americans don't have the attention span to remember what Wayne said five minutes previous to Andrew's response. How is that unbiased? Clown.
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