Reptile Show Ethics???

Wow, I just got done with your thread posted on the BOI about this same subject, and now more than ever I believe crusade is the correct word of choice. You did not like my opinion, nor my choice of words, but here I go again, because I just got done reading what you posted on the BOI. If anyone is lacking in ethics, I do not think it the promoters of the show in question after reading the response of the fellow who responded to your thread on the BOI, the person who knew the reason that show was started years ago.

"I now realize that the show started small, but mabey policies should change with the growing show."

That sure sounds to me like you are wishing for other than what you said in your earlier response to me in this thread. I quote your earlier response to me:

"The reason I posted was to find out if I even had a right to be annoyed. I'm not looking to change someones show outright.

It sure sounds to me from your posting on the BOI that you would at least like to see it changed, or am I reading too much into that. If those people started the show you attended, as the fellow on the BOI told you they did, to facilitate trades and small time sales, then maybe you should butt out and let them handle their show as they see fit, that is my opinion! You have been told about the spirit of how it started, and you said you don't want to change it outrright, but you in essence believe maybe policies should change. To suit whom, I ask! To suit you it seems to me. Didn't the other person make it clear that the people who for years have been vending at this show are satisfied with the way things are.

I think the only person acting unethically here is the newcomer to that show who seemingly, in my mind, got upset, then got mad because no one wanted to change, and now wants to change things or at least see them changed to suit only the newcomer.

It is amazing how much clearer things become when you see the other side of the story, the people who have been running and

My suggestion would be to drop it and let the promoters and other vendors have their way. They had a purpose when they created the show, they are apparently keeping to that purpose by allowing in animals belonging to other than registered vendors, and that seems to facilitate their original plan. You may have a right to complain, but they certainly have a right to run the show the way they see fit.

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

Glenn.... Yo, buddy.... take a Midol and relax, will ya?? The point we are trying to make is better given in a short scenario.... if you spent your hard-earned money to buy/rent a table(s) at a show, spent money for your hotel, transportation, food, etc, etc.... how would YOU feel if, when you were set up at your table, if some "guy" stood by YOUR table with a box full of exactly what you were selling.... at lower prices?? Would you really find that acceptable?? I think it's in very bad taste for the promoter of ANY show to let "people off the street" bring animals in to SELL OR TRADE! It's basically a slap in the face to all the dealers that actually PAID for their tables.... I can understand, maybe, being allowed to bring in ONE ANIMAL to the show.... but a BOX of them?? That's totally unacceptable TO ME! Why spend for the tables if you can just walk in and "hustle" the patrons....
It's like if someone stood outside my store's front door with a box of baby beardies or anything like that, and tried to sell them to everyone that walked in my door.... I'D SHOOT HIM!!
Glenn.... if you really think that's an appropriate way to run a show.... whew!

....Neil

Uncle Goobs,
It's a simple fix. She went to the previous show before she became a vendor. The same policies where in place and acceptable enough for her to want to return as a vendor. The rules outlined are simple, clear and few of them. If they are unacceptable after the fact then IMO like Glenns is tough. She knew going into the show how it was ran. She made her educated decision to become a vendor and accepted the rules as put forth by the Hampers. End of story really.

That's the great thing about freedom to choose. She chose to go knowing the RULES and atmosphere before hand.

However...

Now as for the guy standing at her table with a box of animals trying to sell to her customer. That is wrong and the promoters will do something if they are notified when it is occurring. They cant do much if they don't see it.

The number of patrons that actually bring in animals is on the VERY minute side. During the day your lucky to see maybe 10 to 15 folks with one snake or a turtle or lizard of some sort on the average. And of that 10 or 15 out of thousands, only 1 or 2 may be as she described. It's by far not a common occurrence for folks to bring in boxes chocked full of animals.

I have seen it happen where a kid and his mom or dad will bring in a box of newly hatched lizards from their pets and a dealer will offer to buy the whole lot only to turn around an put it on his table at 2 to 3 times what he just got them for. The dealers win, the kids win, and the patrons get to choose from a nice batch of cbb lizards to buy from. That is how most of the carry-ins end up. But by your last post acting as a dealer, you would lose out on this profit as well.

As for the folks carrying signs advertising animals they carry-in, that is a no no and will be stopped from what I have seen in the past. As before, the event staff need to be notified of it to be able to correct it. It's NOT a common ocurrence by any stretch of the imagination.

You should really know about the show and how it's really ran before you talk about it. I do and have almost 10 years of first hand experience at that show. They feel as you do and its not acceptable to allow folks to stand in front of other tables trying to under bid them. It's by far not common practice by any means. They do go to great lengths to protect the vendors and keep them coming back month after month. If they didnt, than none would come came back month after month, year after year. Some like the Bells drive from as far as Florida to show up every month. So tell me, how bad can this show really be?

Tim.... I was talking in generalities.... I wasn't trying to "pick" on this particular show.... I meant EVERY and ANY show.... I just don't think it's fair for the vendors??
I wasn't talking about Kisha specifically, either??
It's not a question of competition, or anything like that.... I just don't think it's fair....

....Neil

Neil,

If I decided to run a show that allowed people to bring in animals from there homes, and these people were not registered vendors and you as a registered vendor did not like it - tough noogies. It would be my show, I would set the rules. If you would not want to be part of it because of my rules, then I would say find another show. I would have to live with that, but that is the way people do things all the time, they do it their way. As long as these particular rules were set in advance they are ethical as far as business practices go. Apparently other vendors do not feel it is a bad thing or why would this show continue year after year.

I am surprised that you of all people do not see the logic of this since, in my opinion, you seem to have this belief about how you run your own business. You know, nothing specific, but that is certainly the feeling I get from you when you say you would shoot someone selling herps outside your front door (sort of nervously LOL). I am not being disrespectful or a wise ass either, and I am not saying this is a bad thing. I think it is a good thing - you believe your business should be run your way, or so it appears to me from previous posts. I agree with you (or my perceived idea of what you believe), your business should be run your way; after all it is your business. Just as yours should be run your way, then so to should these folks be allowed to run their herp show their way. Of course a vendor may have a say in so much as to offer recommendations or make complaints, but the bottom line is if it is John Doe's show, then it is John Doe who sets the rules. If you or someoneelse did not like this setup, you are certainly not being forced to rent a table at this show. In answer to your how would I like it question, I have one for you: How would you like it if a pet shop owner from afar came into your shop and said, hey wait a minute that is not how we do it, I do not like how you do it, so I want you to change? I think you, of all people on this forum, would tell him to go blow hot air somewhere else, and I think you would be right.

Kisha on the other hand does not seem to understand this. She came from somewhere that ran shows the way she liked. Now she went to a show where things are run differently, even so much so that she disliked it. Fine, she can inquire and complain all she likes - hell I do it myself. The thing is that she is talking about ethics, and the ethical question as I see it is not whether or not these people can run their own show how they like it, but whether or not Kisha can, should or would even want to try to change that system. While I may be way off base, what I think she disliked most of all was that her complaints did not show any promise of changing things. That is the impression I got.

This is their show not hers. Sure she rented a table, and so do lots of others. Apparently the others are quite happy with how goes the show. I have seen this happen before at a local herp society. It is amazing how a newcomer will be the one who wants change or even winds up demanding change and ruins the whole ideal behind why the thing was set up as it was in the first place.

As for the guy selling a box of bearded dragons, and girls selling a bucket full of herps, and the constantly sneezing snake - boy that one particular show must be one for the record books, don't you think? If it was not one for the record books, then why after being to previous shows by the same promoter did Kisha decide to attend again. She did mention it was shows she saw things like this at, not show. The entrance of so called street animals should not have been a surprise to her.

Up above I answered one of your questions with a question. You asked how I would like that guy selling herps right across from me when he did not rent a table. I guess I owe you an answer. I maybe would have politely asked the giant fat guy to move on because he was a pest. Or maybe I would have made a complaint to the management if he did not move on; but afterall what rules was he breaking! I prefer to think I would have done business as usual, pointed out to my potential customers how healthy my Bearded Dragons looked in comparison to others at the show, I also would have told customers how well cared for were mine, then showed them the care sheets I had prepared for them. I would also gladly show them my other stock. Give them my telephone number or email address to contact me with further questions, given them my business card, explained my guarantee. That is really how I would handle it, no kidding. I would run my business as I saw fit; just as these guys seem to be running their business.

Just one last comment, a bit of advice: In my opinion, you should not write or say things like:

"It's like if someone stood outside my store's front door with a box of baby beardies or anything like that, and tried to sell them to everyone that walked in my door.... I'D SHOOT HIM!!".

I make this point because if by some long shot (pun intended) someone is outside your store selling animals, and you go out and give him an earful and the guy gets violent, and you have to defend yourself, and he winds up badly hurt or even dead, oh man what a mess you could be in old buddy because you said something like this. I know you do not mean it, I am pretty sure anyhow that that is what you wish you could do and not actually what you would do, but what about a jury.........

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley
ps: I did not take the Midol, I had a glass of nice red wine. That seemed to work so much better that I may have another. Those Sopranos, got me in the mood for some red wine, can you believe it!

I have done 14 shows this year with 5 different promotors. Each one have different rules and some do let people bring animals in from the street. Case in point, I just returned home from doing the C.F.H.S. show in Orlando and there was several people came in with their own herps from home and some had very low prices. One man was walking around with 2 rubbermaids full of Beardies and he was selling them for $15 so I did the smart thing I bought everyone he had and I have done the same thing at several shows. You have to understand people are not stupid yes some will buy from joe blow walking around with a bucket but most won't they want to know that if something happens to that animal that buy that there is someone that they can calllike a vendor. I get 4 to 8 tables at the shows I do and I pay from $100 up to $200 per table so yes I get pissed when people walk around selling their animals but if they are allowed I do not have a leg to stand on. So my advise is simply, either stop doing those shows that allow people to bring in their animals or grin and bare it.

Thanks everyone- this has been an interesting discussion for me.
You all have raised some good points, some I agree with some I don't. It's all good debate.

Just to clarify, I had not been to the show in question ever before attending as a vendor. I have only lived in this state for a year so my first experience at all the shows I have gone to this year has been as a vendor. My only other experience with reptile shows has been in the southwest, it's my understanding that there are small monthly local shows cropping up out there also. I wonder what their policies are like?

I was bothered by this one shows policies, and I know of other shows that have simmilar rules. I was curious why the policy was this way and I think I have gotten answers.

As far as looking to change things that you think are wrong, whats the problem with that? If people didn't stand up and say, hey I don't think that's right, we would be living in a very different world. Do you think that Rosa Parks ever said, "well if white folks want to run their busses this way, then I'll just WALK!" (obvious overstated example, but you'll get my drift)

Even if my thoughts are'nt the majority, I think it is important to be heard on this issue. Even if you dissagree, I've certainly given you something to think about.

I wouldn't want to RUIN anything for anyone, I would be happy just making things better for everyone. If that's even possible.
I'm just a small time vendor, just sell enough to cover costs. I thought that this might be an even bigger issue to people who sell a lot at this show. I think the risks would be greater, at least.

But if the vendors who go to this show are fine with things the way they are, I guess I will just stick to the captive bred shows. I sell better there anyway.

I think crusade is too strong a term, I prefer campaign.

Check this out...

my question

the answer

I wasn't even at this show, but it's the same event I've been talking about!

I guess it's just one example of vendors off the street selling at a show, don't just take my word for it.

Kisha

Kisha,

Hmmm, now I would have to agree my use of the word crusade was off the mark, but I don't think campaign covers it either. I actually just heard the word in a song a few days ago, the word that now comes to mind. It now appears that this thing was an attempt at a Movement! You may have to be a bit older to remember just what one of those were, but since you brought up Rosa Parks I think you get my drift (LOL).

Using your own example, that of Rosa Parks, I must point out that yes she attempted to right a wrong - an obvious wrong that was immoral, unethical and illegal. What you are trying to right is not a wrong, in my opinion, but a style of doing things with which you are in disagreement. It in no way (overstated or not) can compare to Rosa Parks and her accomplishments. If you see something that someone else does that you do not like, why do you have to want to change it? That is their way of doing it. It is not wrong in any ethical, moral or legal way – it is just wrong in your eyes and the eyes of others who simply do not like it. In such instances, when you try to change it, yes you often wind up being ethically wrong, if only because you are butting into someone else’s business when they are doing things in their own way.

Oh, as for the example from the link to kingsnake – so what? No one is doubtful that people buy animals from people who walk in the front door with them. I just think, in my own experience, that most people buy from registered vendors at such shows; and also think that when someone has lowball prices, well then a vendor would be wise to scoop up those animals. The whole point of my argument was that there is nothing wrong with this if the practice is a normal part of business for the type of show you attended. I am not saying you have to like a guy selling right there in front of you, there is no accounting for someone else's lack of class. As for people walking around the show and not parking right there in front of your table, well that just does not get me upset if I know it is ok by the rules of the show. This type of show was started, according to someone who posted in the BOI on this same subject, in order to promote just that type of small time keeper/breeder selling and trading. That is why they have this show in the first place, that is the primary objective, the driving force behind it. There are plenty of others shows out there where at least one of the primary goals is commercial herp sales and making money. You have a lot to choose from.

That is my opinion in a nutshell and probably my last word on the issue.

By the way, welcome to faunaclassifieds.com herp forums. I got so into posting that I forgot my my manners for a bit there. Fun isn’t it? This is one of best herp sites on the net, and probably the best to discuss business issues for the big time herp dealer through the small time seller. Great site, and great people. Welcome.

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

I actually just heard the word in a song a few days ago, the word that now comes to mind. It now appears that this thing was an attempt at a Movement! You may have to be a bit older to remember just what one of those were

Arlo's a good man, no question about it...