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General Business Discussions This is a general purpose forum open to business related topics concerning Reptiles and Amphibians that are neither appropriate for the Board of Inquiry, nor sales, purchase, or trade solicitations.

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Old 01-15-2006, 08:14 PM   #1
wyblep
Stop! Help and opinions wanted.

I would like to call on the members of the BOI for there honest professional opinion of a transaction I have recently been involved in. I would first like to say that the events I am about to list are as accurate as my memory serves me. I spoke to a gentleman about two adult pastel males I had for sale. I'll leave his identity anonymous for now, as he is a well advertised ball python "breeder". I will also sent him a link to this thread to make him aware of it.

I was selling on of the adult male pastels for 1650.00 and one for 1750.00. These were both adults from 04 weighing 800 plus grams. When we had our first conversation it was on 11-20-05. I told the gentleman a little bit about their feeding habits, such as one of them was still feeding but the other has refused food for the last two weeks. And also, that I introduced both males with females,and they each copulated with a female once while in my possession. I spoke again with the gentleman on 11-24-05 and we agreed on a price of 2500.00 for both males, and I would split the cost of shipping - 70.00 via Delta Dash. I received payment on 11-27-05 for a total of 2535.00 via paypal. An email was sent to the gentleman to confirm that the payment was received, and that I would be calling him later in the week to discuss shipping arrangements. I spoke with him a few days later and we agreed that I would send the two male pastels via Delta Dash on 12-05-05. The animals were shipped, and he received them. When I spoke to him, after he received the animals, he said they felt a little cold to the touch ( even though I shipped them with two heat packs). But, he also stated that he "felt that they would be just fine." I received a call two days later on 12-07-05 from him, and he asked if either snakes ever had any RI's. I told him they never had any health problems at all. He said his partner thought that maybe one had a mild RI, but wasn't sure. I informed him to keep him warm, and to keep me updated. I never heard anything from him again regarding any possible URI, so I assumed the animals were doing fine for him. I then got a phone call on 1-12-06 from this gentleman stating that the one pastel has eaten several times and is currently breeding but the other one had not fed. He also stated that he attempted to breed them male (that did not eat for him and his partner suspected of having a mild URI) for 24 hours with a female, and he did not hook up - so he introduced him to another female overnight and he did not see him hook with that female either. So this particular phone call was to inform me that because of these circumstances at that present time, he was only half way happy with the transaction because he bought these young adult males to breed this year, and only one of them was breeding after 48 hours of introducing them with females. Please keep in mind, this is a self- proclaimed, relatively well known ball python breeder. I would have expected more from someone of this breeder's caliber. I would think that if the health of one of them was even questionable, he would have pulled them from his project, and consulted me about what appropriate actions we would take together to correct the condition of the snake and monetary aspect of the deal. Also, I'm under the impression from his actions that I'm supposed to be responsible for whether or not this male decides to breed when He wants it to?

Nothing else was ever mentioned about any health issues. I was under the impression that the male in question must obviously be fine - he's introducing it to females, right? He only mentioned that he was upset because the one male did not hook up on his first two attempts, and he did not want a male that was NOT going to breed for him right now. So I told him to be patient and give him a little more time with the females. I then received a phone call on 1-14-06 which was two days later, stating that the male pastel that did not hook up was found belly up in his container. He then asked me for a full refund. Now keep in mind, I haven't heard anything from this guy for 5 weeks now - concerning the health of this snake. I actually remember him stating that his "partner" told him, that he thought he had heard a slight wheeze from the snake. But the buyer insist that he informed me that his partner felt the snake had a mild URI. Which leads me to another question - who's rally in control of caring for this guys snakes? Through our conversations, he's informed me that he's mostly the business end of it.

After informing me that the snake had died, I first asked him if there were ever any signs of any health problems. He told me there were no signs of any health problems that he could see, and this was very unexpected. I then proceeded to ask how these snakes were kept and he said they were housed individually in 28 quart Rubbermaid's on newspaper with a ambient room temperature of 80-81 degrees with no hot spot or heat tape at all. Now I know, if I had a snake that had early signs of a upper respiratory infection, the very first thing I would do is raise the temps and this very likely could take care of the problem. That's the least of what I would do, in the best interest of the animal, He on the other hand, only seemed concerned about this male's immediate reproductive/monetary potential.

We also discussed a little bit about what he thought was fair and what he expected. He feels I should give him a full refund for the snake that died even though it was five weeks after the sale. It is his opinion that even if he contacted me 5 months later I would still be responsible because this animal did not eat or breed in his hands yet. He then contradicted himself, and admitted that these animals had good body weight, and the fact that it did not eat for a couple of weeks had nothing to do with its demise. I on the other hand, just can't see how I could be responsible after such a long period of time after the sale. He also felt the need to tell me that he's not some small time breeder, and if he did not get a full refund that he would be forced to post here on the BOI to warn any of my future customers and it might cost me $5000.-10,000 in future sales. So, I thought I'd just cut to the chase, and ask for your opinions in this unfortunate situation. I really feel that I'm the one getting taken advantage of. If this animal really did have an upper respiratory infection, I would have been more than happy to correct the situation. But it obviously WAS healthy enough, in HIS judgement, to introduce to females for breeding purposes. So please let me know where YOU think my responsibility ends after the sale. One week? Three weeks? A month? And who is really getting the "dark" end of the stick here? Please feel free to ask any questions you might have and I will be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability. And thanks again for everyone's help in this matter. Paul Wyble
 
Old 01-15-2006, 08:37 PM   #2
esoteric-lizard
i am curious as to who would introduce an animal suspected of being sick, due to unknown causes, into an established group of healthy breeders?

i know if i had any animal being suspected of being sick i would have that animal under a microscope!

also how could it be an unexpected death if he had suspicions about their health?

i know i quarantine any new animals i get to make sure they are eating and pooping... and are sickness free!

i would say you don't have anything to worry about... as long as your guarantee is crystal clear. how is this going to hurt future business???

seems like it was a done deal.... maybe you can offer him a big discount on a future purchase?

thats my 2 cents... good luck!
 
Old 01-15-2006, 08:47 PM   #3
Karen Hulvey
If an animal has a URI coming on, wouldn't the stress of breeding make it worse?

What is the guarantee you gave him? If you have one, that's what I would go by.
 
Old 01-15-2006, 09:44 PM   #4
dzoo
So he (or his partner) "thought" the snake was sick but did not seek any veterinary care for it? I'd say that its his fault. I know if I paid over a thousand dollars for a snake and it had the sniffles I would certainly get it to a vet for some antibiotics! Also his husbandry (i.e. no heat source in the cage) is a bit suspect also IMHO which could have further lead to the snakes demise.
 
Old 01-15-2006, 09:54 PM   #5
ms_terese
I'm not a fan of the anonymity thing on the BOI. Any opinions that you get from members here without having heard the other side are not going to be very helpful.
 
Old 01-15-2006, 10:46 PM   #6
Corey Woods
IMHO you owe him nothing. Just because an animal eats and breeds at one facility doesn't mean that they will at another. There are a whole list of factors that affect breeding (size, health, age, conditioning....etc) and usually a male won't breed a female if the female isn't ready and/or healthy. After 5 weeks the warrenty period on the animals is definately not valid. I can see refunding some money if the male died after a week but definately not 5. Also, you may want to consider that these people maybe scamming you (as in the snake is still alive and they want some of their money back). I definately wouldn't be giving them anything in return.

Good luck,
Corey Woods
PS It sounds like they weren't keep the males all that well to begin with............no hot spot is definately not the proper husbandry even in the breeding season. So, if by chance the male had an RI he should have atleast had a hot spot of 90-95F for atleast half the day.
 
Old 01-15-2006, 10:51 PM   #7
Chameleon Company
Paul,
I too am not a big fan of anonymity, but understand why you used it here ..... calling a bluff, without turning it into a full BOI war, if it can be avoided. Naturally, its hard to draw definitive conclusions with only one side of it, but IF there were no other TOS involved (like a "guaranteed to breed within 60 days" etc), or some special arrangement once notified about a possible RI ("take it to the vet and then we'll ....."), then this threat against you is absurd. If what you are saying is reasonably thorough and accurate, then the buyer's threat borders on extortion "refund or I go to the BOI, .... and it costs you $5-10K ....". If you have faith in how you handled it all, then I would be inclined to encourage you to fill in the names. If it were just a matter of differing opinions, even some rudeness, then OK. But if the information is accurate as you posted it, then this person may deserve to have their reputation questioned. Maybe others will come out of the woodwork who can relate a similar experience. Maybe it will keep someone else from being taken as these individuals hoped to take you. Do not forget, it was they who mentioned the BOI. Well here you are, and the water is just fine !
 
Old 01-15-2006, 11:24 PM   #8
hill4803
If what you have posted is how the deal went down, in other words there were no warranties or "breeding" & "will eat" guarantees, I would say he is SOL! Why was this big time breeder putting this snake in with his females...no quarentine procedure? How do you know the snake didn't get sick from one of his females? I would say this buyer acted irresponsibly in more than 1 aspect (no additional heating, apparently no quarentine, no vet visit for a possibly ill snake). It may be time to post his name, I wouldn't want to buy from someone that careless with his animals.
 
Old 01-16-2006, 01:04 AM   #9
HellFire
Paul,

After reading your thread, the whole thing sounds REALLY absurd. And, if all of your information is accurate, this "professional" ball python breeder is way out of line, and everything EXCEPT professional. I know you mentioned in your post that you were keeping it anonymous for now, but I'd really like to know who this is too... just so I can steer clear of this person in the future - as a buyer or seller. It's obviously up to you (unless he replies to defend himself), but if this "breeder" really behaves like this, it would be like not only doing the ball python community a favor, but the entire reptile keeping/breeding community a favor by calling him out.

Was any type of extended guarantee ever discussed prior to receiving payment, or shipping the snakes? We all know that a health guarantee is pretty standard, and everyone has their own TOS. But it sounds like this guy wanted the snake to perform on cue. Can you imagine if everyone got their money refunded to them because a snake they purchased didn't breed when and where they wanted it to?

Quote:
I would have expected more from someone of this breeder's caliber. I would think that if the health of one of them was even questionable, he would have pulled them from his project, and consulted me about what appropriate actions we would take together to correct the condition of the snake and monetary aspect of the deal. Also, I'm under the impression from his actions that I'm supposed to be responsible for whether or not this male decides to breed when He wants it to?
I couldn't agree with you more on that one. From what you've mentioned in your thread, it really sounds like this guy is trying to intimidate you and throw his weight around a little bit....and that never sits well with anyone. For him to act like this really demonstrates his lack of experience, lack of class, lack of interest in the welfare of the animals themselves, and lack of ethics.

I could bring up at least 5 more points that are disturbing to me with this whole ordeal. But, others have already mentioned them and I'll try to avoid being redundant.

I'm still keeping an open mind to hear his side of it. But just the fact alone that he thought it could have picked up or had a minor URI, and then he decides to throw it into a breeding trial .... speaks volumes to me. As it stands, I don't see how you could be held responsible in the manner he's requesting, especially after he compounded the situation (if there ever was a situation) by doing everything you're NOT supposed to do - and that's IF he's telling you the truth to begin with about the possible URI. I think he's just jacked that the snake didn't breed for him.

The whole thing just doesn't jive...
 
Old 01-16-2006, 01:43 AM   #10
pardalis
I have to agree, and to reiterate what everyone else is saying YOU DO NOT owe him anything! I hope this all works out for you.
 

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