Ivan Alfonso, Matt Jillson & The Chameleon Company (Jim Flaherty): Bad guys...

I thought I'd mention that it would appear KS decided the IP evidence was sufficient for them to bann Ivan.

Chris Anderson

you guys can call me imature all you want............because I am

but I think you missed my point.

if you all would have stuck to the complaint about how he was posting under different names to attack people and further his own business......
I probably would have been on him like flies on $h!t.

But the first two complaints I read were about his ads.
And frankly as a no one who on day plans to buy a chameleon (an easy one).... and plans to learn about them........
I am saying that the only thing the original poster did was make me see who has good animals and who was just "crying" about it.

anyway after reading the first two complaints and seeing that there is nothing to "cry" about........you kinda make a generalization and think to yourself that the other complaints are probably just like the first two........just someone crying.

To be honest I did not read anything else but the first two complaints.....because when I found them to be "unwarranted"....i really felt no need to read the rest and waste my time..


but then I changed my mind and decided to look into this and was gonna agree with you on the IP thing and how it is wrong to do what he did blah blah blah. But when I go to one of those links that y'all put up and I see this

chamlove


Registered: 09/2004
Posts: 1

He's ok. You should check some of screameleons Ambilobes, they are some true beauties. Rating: 3/5




09-21-2004 11:45AM



bmx2race


Registered: 07/2004
Posts: 1

I agree! There's much better out there and there's nothing outstanding about this chameleon.




09-21-2004 05:12PM

it pretty much tells me y'all do it to. and if you do something wrong because someone wronged you.........YOU ARE STILL WRONG.

I see cham love registered on 9/21/04 just to make negative comment about the competition...........pretty much tells me to disregard this whole IP thing because both sides are doing it.....

I can assure that cham love was not posted by anyone in my camp. Feel free to investigate that.

Originally posted by screameleons
I can assure that cham love was not posted by anyone in my camp. Feel free to investigate that.

Vincent Wong

This is Jim at The Chameleon Company, and while I find some of the posts entertaining, and thank those who have spoken well of myself, my business, or my animals, I also am disappointed with the level of some of the attacks. It all comes with the concept of Capitalism, which is a great thing! In all my years I don't believe that I have slandered a single individual or entity in this thread, and am a bit amazed by those comments leveled at me by those who have never done business with me, communicated with me, or even read my limited publications. I am engaged with some of those who posted in an attempt to get them to clarify some of their mis-statements and inaccuracies. We all make mistakes. To those of you who see much of this as folly, I have to agree. I have drawn the conclusion that the "camp" that claims to have been slandered and attacked seems to have no restraint on doing that which they detest, and that is as negative as I would hope to get. I also admire much of the work and effort made by many of those who have posted, even those that may not have been so kind. Keep those arrows flying, and best of fortune to all in all things chameleon.

I have been contacted by Jim of the Chameleon Company, and it has been brought to my attention that I have made a mistake.

Jim has asked me to address the following quote:

"This is a legitamate problem that needs to be addressed. Mythical Chameleons, The Chameleon Company and Matt Jillson have gotten away with this in the past. I'd like to see this issue be resolved as soon as possible."

I would like to apologize for my accusation of his involvement in past attacks. This appears to not be the case.

However, I do believe that as a current partner to Matt and Ivan, he is implicated in the slander of the past few days. Unless Jim feels he was unknowingly and unwilling brought into this against his wishes, and wants to come out and say that Matt and Ivan did this to him, I feel these accusations in regards to the current attacks are completely fair.

Vincent Wong

I'd have to agree with the Ritchie. Had I been looking to make a purchase like that I would have chosen them. Someone who isn't familiar with the cham "world" so to speak wouldn't see anything strange about this advertising and wouldn't associate it with any other breeder. Sounds to me like it's proven effective since you all are so worked up about it. This thread is free advertising for them and there stock is pictured so wonderfully here.

I'm not tyring to personally attack you here but I'd say "slander" is a bit of a stretch. They don't imply that your animals are sick or that you're a crook they simply say that their stock is better. Hell maybe it is, I don't know and I wouldn't know after I read their ads, but a picture is worth a thousand words right?

I would say you need a little thicker skin, it won't get any easier when you are competeing with other people who want it as bad as yourself. Again this is not personal as I don't know you from Adam but I think you are blowing things way out of proportion.

.02

Chris Marston

To Vince at Screameleons, thank you for the clarification. I have absolutely no knowledge of the origins of these entities and earlier false postings to forums. I am unfortunately too busy to spend much time there. I do, however, acknowledge fully that I am working with both Matt and Ivan on some breeding and husbandry projects, one of which produced a large number of offspring from Anubis, many of which are now themselves gravid. They are very handsome blue-bar Ambilobes, with a few Anubis look-alikes thrown in, but just a few. It has been an absolute pleasure working with Ivan these last few years, and Matt and I get along very well too, although I only met him in L.A. last month, between hurricanes. While I did not compose the ad, and like many, read it for the first time on Kingsnake, I must agree with many of the other posts that it names only one other entity, and that being in a good light. That it refers to lesser quality breeders in gneralities, etc, doesn't quite reach the level of slander that I am accustomed too, but then again, I was not in position to be on the receiving end. I thought it was in good humor when I first read it. Vince, I have been impresssed with many of the animals you have posted, and Chris, I have often been impressed with your contributions and work in the chameleon community. I would like to clarify, however, that Dr. Alfonso was not banned due to any ISP confusion. I know this because the administrative reasons cited by the moderator involved me as well, and it was strictly an administrative oversight on Ivan's part. Chris, you've posted favorably on my behalf in the past, and I thank you for it. I wish all well in their struggles for the almighty dollar, and if ever you spot me at a show ... I will be hanging out at a few coast-to-coast in 2005 .... please introduce yourselves if I don't find you first. Jim

As I read through this, I remembered one thing that happened a while back that I think I should add to this in response to the person who is offended that his animals are being considered "fruity." A good friend of mine, Joe Danyi at SilkwormFarm.com had been advertising his silkworms on kingsnake. When "California Silkworms" got going, there would be a classified ad by CaliSilkworms "following" every ad that Joe put up, to be just above the ad placed by SilkwormFarm. In those ads by Calisilks, they stated how he had the fastest shipping, best product, most experience, lowest prices, among other things. There is no way for those things to be proven, yet it's the same person now complaining that a simple thing like having your animals called "fruity" is illegal in some way, or a direct attack. When I read the original post by Mythical, I didn't even realize that it could potentially be referring to the "fruit named" animals. It was this Fauna thread that brought that to my attention. As I read it, it was referring to the competition as a whole, and it was correct in what it said. Anubis is an amazing animal, and in my opinion, he is the best Ambilobe in the United States. The offspring are amazing, and I know first hand that the people involved in this know what they're doing. I'm doing my best to stay out of this, I just hate to see someone whine about something they have done also.

Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

Jim,

I appreciate your kind words and remarks. I also appreciate you correcting me with regard to the cause of Ivan being banned from KS. If it is appropriate, perhaps you, Ivan or Matt could further clarify the reasons for such actions to completely dispel the association?

My post voicing my feelings on this topic was not in anyway a reflection of my personal feelings toward any individual, it is intended simply to express my sever dislike of the chosen business tactics you and your partners have chosen to follow. I hold nothing personal against any of you, but that does not in any way change my feelings about what has happened and how I feel it affects and reflects upon the chameleon industry. I'm aware that both you and Ivan have expressed your reservations with regard to the tone of the classified adds and while I see the "hidden" references quite clearly and find them inappropriate, the two adds are not the extent of the issue as I see it.





While it seems that the majority of the attention has been given solely to the content of the adds as the main source of discontent, I do not see this to be the reality of the situation. I feel the adds primarily show the similarity of the attacks by "ddmadson" (from Ivan's IP address) and the same indirect references in the adds posted by this partnership (from Ivan's KS user) toward Vince and other breeders that were posted. These similarities would seem odd if coming from two different sources but as the IP addresses show, they came from the same source and as such, providing the adds shows one additional (not the only) case of these poor business ethics I mention. When the adds are viewed as such and you continue to look at the rest of the statements and actions by this partnership, a full picture of their business style becomes apparent. Regardless of whether or not the statements in the add were direct, when put all together, it is obvious how this partnership (or individual if one of the partners is solely responsible) are on a business level. In my opinion, the issue that is being overlooked here is the poor choices made by this partnership when they made all the bogus comments they've made and decided to do so using aliases to try to hide. Each of these, in my opinion, directly reflect the business ethics and the overall intent of this partnership and negatively impact the chameleon community and the targeted breeders with no justification. Since the adds have been beaten to death, here are a few other examples that, in my opinion, continue to show the poor business style and methods of this partnership:

"...the truth isn’t being told...there is something not truthful or should I say not “fully represented” about claiming you are not in league with them. "

In my opinion, there is nothing untruthful with Vincent selling animals that he purchased, that were raised in cages that he purchased. I have never seen Vincent claim he personally bred everything he sells, he simply provides information on the Sire/dam when he can and provides information on his projects to the best of his knowledge and ability. I don't see anything "not truthful" about that and don't understand the accusation that there is. If he has claimed that he himself bred all the animals he is working with or selling, please correct me. The fact of the matter is, as I see it, someone from Ivan's IP address took this opportunity to create false accusations to Vince's honesty and continued to do so in other replies to this thread. That is, in my opinion, slanderous. The fact that the individual (and the evidence points to either Ivan or Matt) felt the need to do so under an alias further shows me that they knew it was.

“I have such a head start on breeding just Ambilobes that there is really nothing he [John Lucas] or you [Dennis Scott] for that matter can do and that includes Vince [Vincent Wong] even with him operating out of the Bebe Blue greenhouse.”

Now granted that this could be viewed as simply a business tactic, I don't particular think intimidation tactics should have their place in breeding efforts. You sell your chameleons for whatever you want to or feel you can get for them and let everyone else do the same. When you start up with a big front about how much bigger your *@#% is then the other person, its unneeded and uncalled for and in my opinion, makes the person look like an id*@t and definitely shows poor business ethics.

“The Nozakis are good friends of mine now and we have aq coupel things cooking behind the scenes and I am working out a deal as I type with the Kammers to trade bloodlines.”

Don't make huge claims about how good you are in with people when 1) it isn't true (I know for a fact that at least one of those is not the case) and 2) those individuals have not consented to you using their name to benefit yourself. Very poor business ethics.

“Lane can set you guys up with all the offspring you'll ever need in a vain attempt to try to hurt me but the fact is that I have a solid 1.5-2 year lead and I am now well into my second generation offspring and breeding of some of the older F2's I have and a small number of F3's with the help of Ivan…”

We've already established just how well endowed you are, there is no need to try to drive it home again. Acting like this is just in poor form, makes you look bad and doesn't say anything good for what type of person would be to do business with.

“…I don't see you, or anyone for that matter as potenital [sic.] competition that can hurt me nor do I feel that I need to bad mouth you guys or any of that stuff.

“Again, I am not saying this to talk [**censored**] or rub your nose in it but to be realistic in that there is no ill willl [sic.] on my part towards you guys because there is no point in getting in a huff over it as far as I am concerned…”

Stepping away from the view of why this reflects negatively on their business ethics and style, who wants to do business with someone who repeatedly pats themselves on the back so boisterously, its just irritating to even listen to.

“I am just too entrenched to recieve any real damage and the bottom is beginning to drop out so I am poised to strike while the iron is smoking.” – Matt Jillson, Image 9
“This thread will prove to be futile in damaging Matt or myself…” – Ivan Alfonso, Image 8

It is my opinion that this type of business strategy is harmful to the industry and this type of slander and poor business ethics should not be supported.

I personally agree with this last statement. I think after looking at the adds and joining that with the above statements, its fairly clear how this partnership (or whoever is responsible for writing all of the above) plans to work and do business. I think the methods chosen by this partnership are deplorable and not anything I'd want to support or do business with. Again, its nothing I have personally against any of them, just how i feel about the actions taken.

Just my 2 cents

Chris