Can We Enforce a Higher Level of Accountablity?

Ahh yes, politicians, opinions, diapers and regulations, what else is needed to make the world go around?

Originally Posted by KelliH

It would be easy to ban a person from advertising here if their trader rating or GGC went below a certain level What would be so hard about that?

Some folks don't have a GGC at all......and what level of trader ratings is "too low"? Newbies would start at zero, so it would have to be a negative number, of course....but then, it is always possible for trader rating abuse to happen, and someone to get a negative rating truly not deserved. I believe it has been said that once a rating is in place, it will not be changed. How far below zero do you go to offset these? Or then there's those like Matt Graybeal and Chris Johnson, who both had exceptionally high trader ratings, yet were still ripping people off...

Then of course, there is bound to be those who will say that the "bar" was set too low, they already had, say, a -1 trader rating, it's OUR fault that we let them still advertise here, and now they got ripped off because of that...

Originally Posted by varnyard

Ahh yes, politicians, opinions, diapers and regulations, what else is needed to make the world go around?

I know that you were just making a 'funny' so don't think I'm griping at you because I'm not.

It's attitudes reflective of thoughts like this, whatever our respective niche is in the reptile world, that keeps us from being able to not only regulate ourselves, but to keep the politicians from regulating us.

Every time a sneaky, underhanded, 'out-for-his/her-own-agenda' politician gets a rider snuck into a bill and it passes, it erodes just a little more of our freedoms.

Heck, maybe I'm preaching to the choir? It sure got quiet around here when the tough replies got posted and questions were asked.

I guess I get tired of listening to people, not just here in our little community, but everywhere (pretty much) gripe moan and complain about the injustice of the day yet looking at me like I fell out of a tree when I ask if they have a solution or recommendation for fixing said perceived injustice.

I guess when our Founding Fathers included our right to free speech they neglected to mention that speech isn't all we should rely on to accomplish our goals. You think they got this country to be an independent entity recognized by the crown by sitting around whining about how unfair their lot was?

NO. They went out and did something about it. They may have done some of the wrong things in accomplishing their objective, but the fact remains they actually DID something.

I guess the question each of us has to ask ourselves is are we willing to become active and involved, even if in just a peripheral way, or will we be content to sit around our collective tables whining about how much freedom we used to have when we used to be allowed to own reptiles while someone else works to prevent that very conversation?

Perhaps I am naive and should just go crawl back in bed and pull the covers up over my head. If I can't see it then it can't really be true, can it?

And people wonder why I drink...

Originally Posted by LakesideBoas

They went out and did something about it.

There are many ways to effect changes and you are right, in order to keep freedom, participation is required.
One mistake many people make, is to in their own minds, undervalue what they can do.
Many of the folks here are extremely verbal behind a keyboard but may feel they don't know where to start or what to say in person, in order to help keep our hobby viable.
Politicians are not only in Washington, they are everywhere and likely in your own area and there are many ways to talk to them that do not involve formal appointments and an adversarial relationship.
Find out who your local representatives are and work on seeing them in a setting that is not formal, maybe a school fair or local barbecue or church function.
Go, and get them involved in a talk about reptiles. Do they have kids? Maybe an offer of a little pet gecko might do wonders to bring the hobby to them in a real way. Develop and maintain a friendship and be on hand to give advice and support should they decide to have a reptile in their home.
Each person here has value as an ambassador for the reptile hobby, and taking the time to bring that hobby to others, being proactive, it easier than trying to wrest owning reptiles back in an adversarial situation where it has been taken from you.

Don't care for those ideas? What are yours? It's easy to be a keyboard warrior and write out a scathing one sentence putdown of the efforts of others. It's hard to build ideas, coalitions, develop plans that are effective. Keeping freedom is hard work. Losing freedom is easy, all you have to do is nothing..

Good thing I couldn't sleep! (The blanket over my face made it really hard to breathe).

I actually have a very good working relationship with many of the more openminded politicians in the area. Once most folks get over their initial shock their natural curiosity kicks in and they almost can't help themselves; if they happen to be here they Will inevitably ask to see and/or (for the more daring) hold something they viewed as a pest not more than an hour before.

Leopard Geckos make excellent ambassadors! I don't know of anyone who has left this house that didn't at least make an exception for them. Must be that 'smile'.

Perhaps that is why in this county there are no restrictions on anything but venomous (permit required, although not terribly expensive it is difficult to meet the requirements) and crocodilians(sp?) over 6 feet (again, permit required). All of the herpers that I have met in this area are cordial to and sometimes friends with the DNR guys (heck they probably went to school together). I think that makes both 'sides' a tad bit more open-minded.

If I walk across the street (really!!) I'm in another county and they prohibit all 'constrictors' (their interpretation is No Boas and No Pythons) I would hate to tell them I've actually witnessed a little baby corn snake constrict it's prey before...rolls eyes and grins...

I should apologize for my bluntness in posting, although I stand behind the words themselves and would never expect anyone to do something I was not prepared to do myself.

Right now I am reading about PIJAC (even though I have donated in the past) like most of us I am guilty of not really knowing what this group of us is all about. Sounds pretty good to me so far. I am also drafting a letter (really rough right now) pertaining to this thread (or at least the gist of it) I am not going to mention Fauna to them as Rich doesn't need the extra headache, he has more than enough I believe!

I do indeed get tired of some of the "hand-wringing" people that I know running around clucking that "The sky is falling!!!" so I tell them if they're so worried about it go get an umbrella already!

Deb mentioned something about posting more in depth tomorrow (today-LOL) so I am looking forward to see what she has come up with. It is my hope that we can all get something positive out of this even if it's something small.

You say your are a member of PIJAC, so perhaps you could get the word out about them to the rest of us. I am going to hit their site and do some reading.

PIJAC is more about our rights to keep animals, they don't really do policing of who does and does not, and good guys/bad guys.

Kat I understand your point about the GGC's (being that you have to pay for one basically) and the trader ratings but the point you made about TSE and Matt Graybeal is really the problem. It just kills me though the way people here bitch and moan about JeffB over at kingsnake allowing "bad guys" to continue advertising there via classifieds when this site is just as bad about that!

I don’t know how I forgot about PIJAC. To be honest, when I first decided to make this Ball Breeding a LLC business, my finance counselor brought this organization to my attention. At that time, I read though the document and got the impression that it applied to big businesses with real facilities and I hadn’t reached that point yet (the document is filed away with my Business Plan for the day that I take this home-based business to the next level *if ever*).

According to PIJAC: Membership is for the following categories:

• Companion Animal Supplier
• Retailer/Groomer
• Manufacturer
• Distributor
• Manufacturers Representative
• Affiliate

1. Retailer - a business engaged in the sale of pet supplies, services or livestock to the pet consumer. This business must maintain a store front or commercial facility that is separate from a place of residence. Apparently that effectively eliminates some of us that operate our own home-based, Internet businesses.

2. Hobbyist - an individual who breeds companion animals for personal pleasure, not for retail sale

As Kelli said, this organization is not about enforcement, but voluntary compliance. Where do we fit in (some of us)? How do we make our voice heard if we are not in these categories? How can we more effectively police our sector of the reptile community? *I know that word gives out bad vibes, but seriously we are in effect policing ourselves now, albeit ineffectively.*

That said; there is no need to recreate the wheel, most of us already follow their “Standard Operating Procedures Guidelines” more or less, so as I see it, we are looking for some ‘controls’ to make laws (similar to the “Lemon Law” that was passed not too long ago when used car salesmen continued to scam unwary buyers into buying lemons-cars) so that buyers have more recourse in getting legal reparation when they are scammed, and make it more difficult for scammers to operate as a result. Here’s one option: http://politics.wikia.com/index.php?title=Propose_a_Law (tongue-in-cheek). At the present, I don’t know what good this will do, having never tried it.

I then found this site: http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/...dta_ocdetf.pdf it would/could be the template from which we drew the format to create our own performance monitoring/ performance laws (for lack of a better term). This could be suggested to PIJAC as a subsidy by a representative (showing a united front of the small business/hobbyist).

The options are:
• A subsidy of PIJAC overseeing the small hobbyist?
• Set up a representative (vote) and lobby and create proposal with guidelines that covers the “home-based” reptile business element.


For those worried about the "what if"
*What if someone lies on another?
*What if someone posts a false report?
*What if a more popular person decides to target a competitor?

There may be a way to set up some automatic scoring system (if we can create software that tracks our animals..we may be able to get funding to create software for this purpose). For instance, using the traffic allegory again, when we rack up a certain number of points our driver's license is automatically suspended (per court..etc). Now to prevent abuses...(not all abuse can be prevented..there is still the random cop that is just looking to make his quota) it's largely automatic..you get a ticket, you pay, or you come to court and explain why you believe that the ticket is wrong (facts not excuses) an impartial judge listens to the evidence and either warns you (you may still have to pay a fine) or suspends your license based on how many previous warnings/tickets that you have racked up.

The system of control doesn't have to be based on the good guy emblem system..that does have the potential to be abused, but on original posts by buyers presenting their side of the story same as we always have....I am still brainstorming...

New group lobbies against Internet fraud
By Dibya Sarkar, AP Business Writer | July 26, 2007

http://www.boston.com/business/techn..._fraud?mode=PF

WASHINGTON --Well-known companies such as Dell Inc., Yahoo Inc. and Marriott International Inc. are lobbying Congress for tougher laws targeting online scammers who profit from their brand names.

United as the Coalition Against Domain Name Abuse, 10 companies have hired the law firm Alston and Bird LLP to persuade federal lawmakers of the need to crack down against those who claim Web addresses, or domain names, that include -- or even resemble -- a legitimate company's trademark.

The coalition estimates that so-called cybersquatting costs companies worldwide more than $1 billion annually in diverted customer sales and enforcement expenses...


I think this is applicable because it shows how other communities (in this case the internet owners;websites) banded together to lobby for stricter controls. And I must say that I do think that scammers actions hurt reputable breeders moneywise.

http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsr...669828,00.html

DULLES, VA - Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - In an important new chapter in the fight against spam, America Online joined with Virginia lawmakers and Internet industry leaders to unveil a much-needed, timely new weapon in the war against spammers: a strengthened state law that allows for the criminal prosecution of spammers with penalties that include jail time, asset forfeiture, and fines. The unveiling of the new state law comes on the eve of the first-ever Federal Trade Commission (FTC) forum on spam, to be held in Washington, D.C. April 30-May 2.

The new anti-spam statute (SB 1139/HB 2290) now gives law enforcement the ability to bring felony-level prosecutions against spammers who use AOL's Virginia-based email servers to send spam to AOL members in violation of Virginia?s Computer Crimes Act. Other companies whose email servers are located or based in Virginia - such as Verizon, RoadRunner, and UUnet - will be able to benefit from the tough anti-spam provisions of the new law and also refer cases for criminal prosecution.....


They did this for SPAM..what can we do for SCAMS?

Some kind of Mission Statement, Purpose....

More tweaking is needed : )

Scammer Coalition

The cyber universe is an amazing place, and those who navigate its waters are met with many surprises. Unfortunately, they are not always pleasant, as those who have become victims to Internet rip off artists in the Reptile Trade have discovered. It is not an exaggeration to say that millions of people will be enticed by false information and scams each year.

The Consumer Watchdog of the Internet
Although this cyber “wild west” somewhat mirrors the “real world” where good and bad coexist, the Reptile Scam – Scammer Coalition hopes to stack the deck in the favor of the former. As a watchdog consumer advocacy group, the Coalition promises to warn the public about unethical behavior, counterfeit schemes, con artists, bogus schemes, illegitimate operations, and underhanded franchises (and their owners/operators.) It will also give updates on the status of publicly-available claims information (as researched by volunteers).

The Coalition will also attack conspiracy theories, separating the true from the false (again, using their network of international members) by gathering information to effectively weed out the “fakes” through “buyer beware” warnings. Thus, those involved in false advertising will be “outed” and, hopefully, “ousted” as well by the reptile consumers who are tired of their poor sales, business troubles, wrong product, franchise troubles, stock swindling operations, business corruptions, lack of product delivery and unfulfilled promises. The Coalition believes that lawful business owners and honest individuals should always be willing and able to spot the World Wide Web chameleons that have caused the legitimate small Reptile owners/breeders troubles.

Exposing accounts of Fraud, Deception, Dirty Business Schemes
Through personal anecdotal evidence, the Coalition will expose accounts of truly deceptive, “dirty” business schemes. From details of horrible service and support to the misleading ads and emails by scammers, the Coalition will keep personal testimonies in a master file to be used as resources,

The Coalition believes that the key to stopping cyber thieves is to educate the public. Thus, people can avoid falling into high pressure sales traps, fraudulent activities, and fake businesses. Through prevention education articles and essays given by PIJAC, alerts, and press releases, the Coalition will be able to call consumer attention to any scams where liars and cheats are preying on the consumers of Reptile web products and services. Their feeling is that if the con artists can use the Internet for evil the advocacy group can use it for good.
Advice will pepper the Coalition website, including rip off “red flag” alerts (aka, what to watch out for, such as hard sell approaches and poor response time.) As mentioned above, articles such as “How Small Time Hoodlum Scammers Operate” and “How Did An Online Business Violate Your Trust?” will be available to visitors. The bulletins will be engaging and truthful; they may also spark follow up bulletins about unhappy customers’ bad experiences, financial rip-off stories, unhappy consumers, unhappy businesses, suppliers and international organizations. The advocacy program is determined to put a dent in Reptile cyber crime.

Learning Franchise Resource for Victims of Scams, Fraudent Companies with Poor Business Ethics
The Coalition will also be a resource for learning to those unhappy clients who have already been defrauded by liars. Though for most victims of cyber abuse, it’s difficult to even accept the fact that they’ve been conned into buying products or services that were never delivered, it’s critical that they come forward. Even if their stories are agonizing to relate, they can never achieve emotional (and fiscal) closure without “fessing up.” After all, we’ve all made mistakes. The community will respond to a sheepish, “I fell for their lies” with a robust, supportive, “They lied to me, too! But I took action, and here’s how you can get those scammers, too…!” Our consumer advocacy program is intended to foster this kind of “we’re in this together” mentality.
Although there are consumer laws and statutes in place to “protect” individuals from scams by rip-off operators, people still fall for shady business dealings every day. And when they do, they often feel like “fools.
For those who agree with the Coalition’s “get your head out of the sand” attitude, the Coalition hopes to be a clearinghouse of information for consumers, businesses, and advocates. The Coalition cannot give definitive data on whether your case violates franchise laws, securities laws, business laws, consumer laws, corporate laws, international laws or case laws, but they can provide links to news sites and your state, country, or international government agencies. The Coalition hopes that information on scammers who are distributing fake information or operating online scams (which, ironically, are the same old scams that have been around for millennia) will be exposed even faster.

Latest Alerts on Buyer Beware warnings, Fraudent Internet Businesses
Through the dissemination of current events related to poor business ethics and misleading advertising, the Coalition expects to become the homepage to those interested in making sure they can safely make purchases or do business on the Internet. After all, when a person is actively involved in reading about a scam on the net, he or she is less likely to fall for it. The related alert emails and “buyer beware” warnings should make many feel more comfortable globally buying and selling reptiles, goods and services.
In the future, the Coalition foresees forming ties with other consumer-reptile advocacy groups around the globe. Together, they can more efficiently battle spamming, scamming, and phishing. The more persons who receive the Coalition’s information, the better it will be for legitimate online businesses. After all, one bad experience involving an Internet scam can color a consumers’ entire view of the Internet.

Your Co-operation needed
But the Coalition cannot operate alone. It needs your help. By visiting the reptile, consumer advocacy coalition’s website, you can start your journey on becoming savvy about the ugly truth that is online swindling. And when you start to learn about hard sell techniques through the words of cheated people, you’ll be motivated to tell everyone you know. It’s the best and greatest use of the World Wide Web. Yes, cyberspace can be dangerous, but it can also be a powerful mechanism for change. Therefore, the Coalition asks that you devote some time to ensuring that you are an informed consumer; research products and services thoroughly before choosing to buy or partner. It may be hard to turn down something that sounds like such a “sure thing”, but recall the old adage that money doesn’t grow on trees. Nor does it suddenly appear in your email inbox from people you’ve never heard of before.
As the world of cyberspace begins to police itself, it will become harder and harder for thieves to commit corrupt or deceptive practices. Yes, some will also fall for false information hidden under the guise of a “don’t miss this one” opportunity. But the more people that the Coalition can reach, the fewer who will wake up broke one morning with the realization that they fell for the Internet scams operated by online liars and cheats.