To Jump or Not To Jump

I threw that link up just to show a ball python that would fit the dictionary definition of pastel, but not the industry definition.

Brian is basing his argument that it's accepteable to use the term on a few points...

That "Pastel" is nothing but an adjective and that the snake(s) in question "look pastel" to him based off the dictionary definition of the term... Take a look at that link, then take a look at his picyures. Knowing that an animal can have the subdued soft hues of Skip's animal... Does the term "Pastel" come to mind when looking at Brian's pictures?

That he will represent them as being non-genetically proven and thus is not being deceptive in his use of the term. However, as I believe my response in the above paragraph indicates, the animal does not coincidentally look Pastel according to dictionary definitions... But does bear a slight superficial (although not identical) resemblance to the genetic morph known as "Pastel"... So if there was no intent to draw sales based off the common use of the term in relation to ball pythons... Why even risk the possibility of confusion by using the term? Why not apply another term as a selling point and totally avoid the entire potential issue of misrepresentation?

That an animal's appearance is worth additional money... The only item I'll agree with. An animal's appearance can certainly increase it's price... but if Brian is confident that the appearance alone is worth his proposed price of $200, why does he need to apply a term that people will, to some degree or another, associate with something else?

Brian,

Here is in a nutshell the Laura De Hart case:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...i&pagenumber=1

If you want to read the whole thing do a search under Brian Rogers.

The court awarded her $3,000 (the maximum) because she was sold normal ball pythons instead of heterozygous for albino.

Regards.

... but if Brian is confident that the appearance alone is worth his proposed price of $200, why does he need to apply a term that people will, to some degree or another, associate with something else?

Seamus, I see your point, but here is where I disagree with you. I don't think the "industry standard" for the term "pastel" is what you think it is. Further, I would be willing to bet the "public standard" is far less stringent than even what we've described so far. I think the general public will accept even the top snake in my picture as a "pastel" And on top of that, walk away having paid $200 for it and be happy with their purchase.

You are right about pastel being a "recognized term" though. So here's the experiment we do: we hand 25 or 50 people at a herp show a pencil and a paper and say, "Please give me the definition of a "pastel ball." Do you really think even half of those people will know about the whole genetic issue and write that into thier definition. Or do you think, as I do, that most of them will write something along the lines of: a light colored ball python. Maybe 10% might know something about the genetics, but not enough to exclude my snake. Many would have no idea what I was talking about, but would be able to come up with something because they would familiar with ball pythons and the term pastel.

The people who came up with the name "MOJAVE" to represent thier unique balls picked much more wisely than the guy who chose "pastel." Mojave is not an adjective, when they first started using it, it brought to mind no specific color, pattern, shade, size, etc. "Pastel" brings to mind a color or a shade immediately. I could say my wife has some purple pastel underwear and everyone would conjer up some idea as to what I was talking about. Now, if I said my wife has some purple Mojave underwear, most people are going to need some more description to have any idea what I am talking about. Either that or they might just think my sex life is really dry (like the desert). LOL

Yes, if we went to the BP forum and asked the question: describe a Pastel Jungle ball, we would get many many more people who could tell us exactly what you've said. But anyone who is that into ball pythons is NOT the general public. Further, if someone is willing to pay $1450 more for a snake because of it's genotype, then I think they have a responsibility to themselves to ask the right questions up front, and to know what those questions are.

I have to agree that the actual term for the trait we are talking about is "Pastel Jungle" Ball Python. So even though "Pastel" Ball Python isnt actually the same name as the morph, it is used as the name sometimes and I feel it is very misleading to throw that term in and that is why I got my undies bunched up ;-). If you took all of the snakes in question to any of the known breeders, who we could say are experts in the feild, they would have no problem picking out pastels from light colored Ball's. Although a lot of people dont know what the standard is does not mean it does not exist. You definitely can get away labeling your animals as Pastel, but I find it very odd to do so. If thats what you want to do, I guess you will. Strange to me though...
Steve,
No problem at all. I posted that pic to show the differences of what Pastels can look like. Their also is an odd blushing snake in the middle that a guy tried to swear up and down that it was a Pastel as a little baby, and I ended up purchasing her as a normal (from a friend of his that knew what he was talking about) a year later. That snake is very beautiful (amazing), but I would be very upset if I didnt know better and had purchased her as a Pastel Jungle. The male Pastel is on the left side of the screen in the first shot. He is not the best looking Pastel and the photos dont help him out at all (make him look a little worse ;-) ). I take no offense to an opinion of my animals and I would always represent them correctly. That male (Pastel in photos) has already been sold in hopes to find me a male to match up in brightness with my female.
Anyway, I think you should try a little test Brian. Take pics and send them to some of the Big Ball Python Breeders or just bring them in person to your next Herp Show and tell them you purchased these snakes as Pastels and see what they say. Dont explain your dictionary definition strategy, just that you bought them as Pastels. Or maybe just pick one out of the millions of words available to describe them that does not have anything to do with a known trait. Just my opinion.
Thanks, Tom Baker

If you took all of the snakes in question to any of the known breeders, who we could say are experts in the feild, they would have no problem picking out pastels from light colored Ball's.

Tom, are you then saying it is impossible to import a jungle pastel ball from Africa? If so, where did the first one come from? I think this is the main problem I have with your argument. You have bought your way into some very expensive (and nice) ball pythons, and now you are convinced the only way for anyone to get thier hands on similar animals is to spend the type of money you did. That's nice, but these morhps do pop up in wild populations as well.

Does anyone have a baby "jungle pastel" w/ paperwork they could take a pic of to post? I would love to see just how much different one looks from my snake. No one as yet has challenged my snake on the phenotypic level. Tom, the way I interpret your arguement, the snakes could be dead on the same, and the only way the "big breeders" could tell the difference by looking at them would be because your's would be sitting on a piece of paper you paid $1450 dollars for.

Alvaro, I read that post. Don't really think we're talking about the same thing. Further, he wasn't even in the courtroom, so of course she won! All I managed to get from that was that she was sold a sick 50% het ball, is that right? No where near the same thing as using the adjective "pastel" to describe my animal.

[quote]Alvaro, I read that post. Don't really think we're talking about the same thing. Further, he wasn't even in the courtroom, so of course she won! All I managed to get from that was that she was sold a sick 50% het ball, is that right? No where near the same thing as using the adjective "pastel" to describe my animal.[/b]

Brian,

Maybe you missed my point. What I meant to say is that she took the people to court (true, they did not show up) and won the case even without needing to prove that two normal balls were not heterozygous.

Let us suppose you sell your python as pastel in $400 (you found a person crazy enough about his color). Later on, and visiting with a "Pastel Jungle" breeder he finds out it is nothing but a normal ball, whose color more than likely will change to maroon, in a beautiful display of a normal "feral-color" ball python. This person decides to sue you because misrepresentation (although you did not mean it!). The snake you sold as pastel is brought as exhibit A, and a "Pastel" (per-industry standards) is brought as exhibit B. An expert is called as a witness. How long do you think it will take to demonstrate they are different things, and that the term Pastel has been used for years to name snakes that look just like snake B, and that upon breeding half of the offspring will on average show this trait?

As with regards to the name "Pastel" and "Pastel Jungle", people call them Pastel's just as a shortcut and in the understanding that those that are into ball pythons will know they are referring to Pastel Jungles. What if someone has two normal ball pythons and he names them "Pieds" (you know, his family is originally from Piedmont, France ) ). He can later sell the offspring as 100% hetero for Pieds at $1000 and $2000 for males and females respectively. How many ads a day do you see that mention Pieds and we all understand they are referring to piebald balls?

Here is an ad posted this week selling "Pastels" (and believe me, they are pastels as per industry's standards) :

Pastels Popping Out!
Anaheim, CA
Posted by Camlon Reptiles (Contact Me!) on May 10, 2003 at 17:37:08

Click on thumbnails to view fullsize in a new window

Here they come our first clutch of the season, Pastels! It will be a few days before they are out, and we need to get them feeding but they are here, yeah! The second clutch is due in 2 weeks.

Any ways, it's your call. You want to call them pastels go ahead and do it.

Take care.

are you then saying it is impossible to import a jungle pastel ball from Africa?

Impossible and Improbable to the point of uselessness as an argument are slightly different things... But the end result is the same when it comes to the animals you have purchased and will resell.

You don't actually believe that your light colored animals are carrying the pastel genes, do you?

That you ended up getting these animals imported even after the trait has become desireable and expensive, just "Whoops, accidently threw in a $1500+ animal there. Oh well."

Your animals are genetically normal, light colored and I suppose slightly more desireable, but... You can give no assurances that they will stay light colored or produce lighter offspring or will even look like that after their next shed.

Have they even shed while in your care yet? Judging by the girth and comparative sizes of the heads, they're still tiny 'lil guys... Are they even feeding regularly?

That's nice, but these morhps do pop up in wild populations as well.

With what frequency? How many were imported over how many years to establish the captive bloodlines and prove out the genetics? Now how many ball pythons total were imported in that same time frame?

No one as yet has challenged my snake on the phenotypic level.

Tom did actually, saying that he saw obvious differences even in the picture.

Tom, the way I interpret your arguement, the snakes could be dead on the same, and the only way the "big breeders" could tell the difference by looking at them would be because your's would be sitting on a piece of paper you paid $1450 dollars for.

How did you get that from...

If you took all of the snakes in question to any of the known breeders, who we could say are experts in the feild, they would have no problem picking out pastels from light colored Ball's.

I think you should try a little test Brian. Take pics and send them to some of the Big Ball Python Breeders or just bring them in person to your next Herp Show and tell them you purchased these snakes as Pastels and see what they say. Dont explain your dictionary definition strategy, just that you bought them as Pastels.

Is it 'cause the way you interpret posts seems to be identical to the way you interpret the term "Pastel" by which I mean... all ####ed up and totally separate from reality?

It seemed pretty clear to me that he was saying that anyone who knew the morph could easily pick out actual pastels from the fresh imports that you decided you wanted $200 for. If I'm wrong, please correct me on that... but that's the way I read those statements.

Brian,
I guess you havent read my posts to see that I have stated that Pastels do get brought in from the wild. I tried to tell you it has nothing to do with a peice of paperwork, because unless your talking about a receipt it is not needed. Paperwork comes with hets because they visibly do not display the trait you are looking for and you are relying on the breeder to be honest and put his name on the line that this animal does in fact carry certain genes. Pastels are obviously visibly a Pastel. Sometimes with pics some might have a hard time, but in person their is no question. For the last few weeks in fact their was a wild caught adult female Pastel being sold on Kingsnake. Their are other ways to get a Pastel im sure, but everyone down the line knows what a Pastel looks like from the people in Africa to the peoples hands it goes through on importation and it isnt impossible, but is probably a rarity to happen across a Pastel as a normal now days.
I do challenge and stand firm that none of those 3 snakes are Pastels or are near it. I'm not just saying that... Do you think that I wouldnt want to buy a Pastel to strengthen my breeding group for $200? Its just not going to happen. Even the ugliest of Pastels is still visibly a Pastel and would fetch $700 (maybe more). I challenge you again Brian. Take your snakes to the shows, or take some really nice individual shots in good light. Then bring them or send picks to people like the Snake Keeper, Graziani, VPI, NERD, Ralph Davis, etc... Those are just some of the big names, but you really can bring it to anyone who owns are is interested in Pastel Jungles and ask them. They will have no problem telling you that those snakes are not Pastels. Maybe their are quite a few people here that do not have as much interest in Ball Pythons as I do, but it is night and day. Pastels do not need paperwork because their trait is extremely visible to any Ball Python morph enthusiast. You could never once mention who you purchased it from or what the lineage is, and never show any receipt, and if it is a Pastel interested parties would know just by looking. I also am not saying that your snakes arent beautiful... Their is quite a variety of, and quite beautiful "normal" Ball Pythons.
Thanks, Tom Baker

Alvaro

I saw that ad, in fact I went into the BP classifieds the other day just to see if I could find more examples of pastels. From what I could see (only the heads out of the egg) I couldn't tell what they were. You say that they are pastels as per industry standards but that obviously because you have first hand knowledge of them (yours perhaps?) From the pictures I would challenge anyone to stake their reputation on the fact that they were in fact pastels as per industry standards. Its not a knock on you or the ad or the representation of the snakes, just that it doesn't add anything to this discussion.

Steve Schindler