To Jump or Not To Jump

You're still assuming I'm trying to deceive people about the genotype of this animal. I would absolutely tell them this is by no means a pastel jungle (genotypically proven). It will be described as a nonproven phenotypic pastel.

Said that a page or two back Brian...

That you would absolutely tell them it is by no means a pastel jungle...

And would label it a nonproven phenotypic pastel...

Would you also feed them those lines about "It just hasn't been proven out yet, all the big ticket morphs started out as imports, now look at the prices." while conveniently leaving out the odds involved with discovering and proving out a new genetic morph?

Deception doesn't always have to be an outright lie...

A "convenient" omission of the complete truth qualifies too. You've shown that you seem hell bent on using a term that has the possibility of confusing people, true you might not deliberatly lie, but you allow them to form a misimpression...

And if they ask, you've already shown that you're more than ready to jump in with a quick "You can't prove it's not." and "There's a chance that it might be." without specifying the odds or explaining why you're ripping someone off for about $125 worth of undeserved profit (give or take $50, what are imported neonate balls selling for this year? Assume for a moment that he's got them feeding and healthy, he hasn't really commented on that yet so I figure he should get the benefit of the doubt... for now at least).

Partial representation of the truth is still deceptive... if you were really as honest about all this as you claim it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place since you would have selected another term that wouldn't hold even the hint of the merest speculation of the possibility of confusion... and you sure as hell wouldn't try to return with arguments about how all morphs were imported at one point or another while not specifying the odds against your animal representing a new genotypical mutation.

As I said before, it's a matter of ethics... Brian is showing his.

Steve,

I agree with you 100%, you can't tell they are pastels from that picture. What I meant was that the term Pastel is being used to refer to Pastel Jungles, and I know that Camlon Reptiles do carry them in their stock. It was just an examples as of how the term Pastel is being used indistinctly fro Pastel Jungle. Thanks for the making the point though.

Here are some more examples of the indistinct use of the term. All those that posted these ads are known to carry Pastel Jungle breeding stock:

Ball Pythons Here or Incubating.
Posted by XXX (Contact Me!) on May 08, 2003 at 14:32:41

Let me know if you have an interest in any of these and we can work out a deal. I will consider trades as well:

Hatching:

Clutch 1: 50% Possible Het. Clown

Clutch 2: 50% Possible Het. Genetic Stripe

Incubating:

Clutch 3: 50% Possible Het. Camel Albino

Clutch 4: 50% Possible Het. Clown

Clutch 5: Het. VPI Snow X VPI Axanthic

Clutch 6: Sharp Albino X VPI Axanthic

Clutch 7: Odd Color Yellow Ghost X Yellow Ghost

Gravid (lay in 30 days or less):

Clutch 8: VPI “True Ghost” (Double Het. X Double Het.)

Clutch 9: Pastel (Possible Het. Piebald) X Het. Piebald

Clutch 10: Het. VPI Snow X VPI Axanthic

Clutch 11: VPI Axanthic X HUGE Het. VPI Axanthic

Clutch 11: Het. Clown X VPI Axanthic

Yet another one:

Ball Python - Male PIC Posted by XXX (Contact Me!) on May 06, 2003 at 05:10:37

Ball Python - Male

Description: Great looking 3 1/2 ft male ball python. It has a nice pattern with high yellow contrast. We have seen many sold at shows as pastels for $600 and up.
Price: $350.00

Note that in this last ad they are being very careful (of labeling their animal simply "Pastel"). They are not saying it is, only that they have seen people selling them as such in shows, thus they recognizing Pastel as a synonim for Pastel Jungle.

Regards.

In the pic I see 3 NORMAL balls, with nice colors. I just had a fauna member (whom I look up to) send me the link to this thread as I had no idea it was even here.

I have not been posting here as much as I find myself and my posts getting out of hand on ball morph issues. I am sick and tired of people posting balls up for sale with labels such as pastel, ghost, and many others when it is clear to see by the looks of the animal, AND the price, that it is in fact a normal ball python.

I am one of the many people that refer to Pastel jungles as PASTELS. I do think Joe has a great point, but I just sold my breeder male PASTEL. This was a geneticly proven Jungle pastel.

I will be back later today to read this entire post for the third time, but I will however say this. For anybody to call/sell an animal that is normal as a pastel, is just wrong, and I hope that people that scam like this get weeded out of herps as soon as possible.

Again, I will reread this thread again and be back to post after I go to the grocery store and buy some nachos. I just found some chips in a black and white bag that look the same as doritos, I noticed that they were priced at 1/3 of doritos, but they look similiar so they must be worth more. I was gonna buy a few extra bags and sell them as DORITOS.

UMMM........ Have I ever even said the animal was for sale? Have you seen an ad for this snake for sale anywhere at any price? Seamus, to answer your questions. I have had the snake since last week. I thought he looked a little wierd sitting in the box with all the others, so I picked it out on the off chance it would turn out unique after it shed. Once it did, I was nicely surprised. The animal has not fed yet, but I've only tried twice. Since it has not fed it is no where near ready to be for sale.

Have I ever said I would be selling this animal for $1500? I think the closest I got to putting a price on it was saying, I thought the general public would be happy to pay $200 bucks for it. You guys keep bashing me for thinking this snake is worth more than a normal ball, yet you're willing to pay more for the snakes you buy just so you can produce snakes that look different from normal balls. This snake stands out head and shoulders above the other 25 ball pythons I have in my basement right now. I think I made a mistake of putting that nice light-colored one in the pic with it. Had I just ploped it out there with two normals, it would have stood out much more.

And Seamus, who are you to determine what "undeserved profit" is or isn't. The snake is sitting in my basement, while I wait on it to get hungry enough to start feeding. It hasn't been sold to some poor, unsuspecting nun, who was making her first venture into the reptile industry. And when/if I do decide to sell it, whatever profit I make on it is between me and my customer. I believe we still live in America where I can ask $150,000 for that snake if I want and if someone agrees to give that for it, I'm allowed to take it. You're right Tom did challenge my snake, but never with any specifics. I want him, you, or someone to explain the phenotypic differences between my snake and his to me. Based on the pics, I don't see much difference, other than his does seem to have more of the "blushing" down the back than mine.

Realvenom, I never said my snake was a "Dorito" (brand name like Pastel Jungle), I only said it was a nacho chip. Made of corn and trianglular.

All I can say is...wow.

What's the ball python in the picture? Do I hear $200 for it? If so consider it sold (and I'm profiting $165!!!)!

So what is the accepted profit margin per animal? Do you adjust for cost of living allowance, or is the snake breeder's profit margin in Alabama enough for the breeder in CA or NY as well? Does the snake's (or lizards) pedigree need to be backed up with with a Profit and Loss statement as well?

I just think jumping on someone's pricing as a basis of whether they are ethical or not is not rooted in reality. Pricing is decided by market conditions (supply, demand and what the consumer is willing to pay), in our society anyway.

I haven't read Brian say he was selling this snake. I have read that if he did he would tell the buyer what it looked like but that it wasn't a genitically proven trait in this animal. Sounds like he intends to be completely upfront and honest IF he decides to sell it at all.

Now if this thread is to question Brians ethics I think we went way way off track here. If it's about him selling a snake that looks a lot like a genitically proven and valuable morph of the ball python, well, then we're a little closer to the mark. It's been difficult to tell just which point has been the main one here.

Now, as far as what Brian charges and how much profit he makes, it is NO ONES business but his. I think some of you have stepped pretty far over the line on this one. Yes, this is America, land of the free and home of the profit. Whether he gives it away for nothing or trades it for his next house is entirely up to him and whoever gets it, no one else. So long as all parties in the deal are happy then there is no reason for anyone to have any concerns over this at all.Brian, as far as I am concerned, can sell this snake as whatever he wants to call it so long as he's honest about the genitics involved-ie unproven as being genitic at all-and charge what ever he thinks he can get for it. If you're in reptiles as a business you're in it to make money. As long as the snake is honestly represented it's his business and no one elses what he sells it for.

Wes Pollock

Profit becomes unreasonable...

When it is gained under false pretenses.

The fact that he refuses to acknowledge the misrepresentation inherent in using a popular term associated with something his animal is not...

Makes it likely, not a guarantee, but LIKELY the a novice buyer would form a misimpression about the value of the animal and thus would be paying for something they would not otherwise pay that amount for...

Had it been labeled properly.

It's not acceptable to sell an animal as captive bred when it is only haptive hatched and apply additional money to the stated price using the misrepresntation as a justification for the action... It's similarly unacceptable to give unsuspecting and naive buyers a misimpression about the value of the animal while jacking the price up well above what would be charged were the represntation honest. By using the term Pastel, the animal is being misrepresented, end of story.

No matter what information is given to a potential consumer IF they ask, using the term "Pastel" for an animal which is NOT PASTEL is misrepresentation and thus... the price is falsely inflated. And... what if they don't ask? And... will they get the same "It's not genetically proven, but that doesn't mean it's not genetic" that have been seen on this thread, a highly misleading used cars salesman type pitch for this imported ball python.