Inbreeding taking a toll on albinos?

Unfortunately there's no real way of telling where the defective gene (if it is genetic, evidence strongly suggests it but it has yet to be proven) originated without some serious, intense leg-work... Contacting every breeder/dealer who has an animal displaying an eye problem and then trying to trace it backwards. I suspect that most people would be unwilling to talk about the situation, since asking "Did you produce an animal with this deformity?" and "Who did you sell it's siblings to, who did you get it's parents from?" could easily be mistaken as a slight against their quality... It is in some ways- most people know that continued propogation from animals related to the problem is wrong, they just ignore it for the money that there is to be made.

Further, the problem seems really wide-spread, it's not a situation where there's one identifiable breeder who's constantly producing animals which have the problem, it's cropped up in many collections. What this implies is that the defective gene was likely introduced early on in the project and, as Alvaro said, it was likely unintentional. There are some conditions which have a genetic cause but can't be expressed as a simple recessive or codominant trait, they are simply quantitative... Kinda like... breeding a beardie with more red in it to another with more red than normal will result in neonates which have more red... Chances are good that this eye defect is similar, added to the gene pool through an animal which appeared completely normal, reinforced over a few successive generations, still without displaying itself and eventually becoming strong enough to start showing up.

Problem now is identifying which animals have it and which ones don't... Since outcrossing often involves animals sharing the same trait, but having the same origination... (Single albino boa which originated the line) it gets into multiple breeding groups. Add in the fact that most people selling offspring won't mention that a sibling had an eye defect or that last year the same adults threw a few with eye problems when selling neonates which don't have the problem...

An easy parallel can be drawn to leucistic texas rat snakes... The bug eye condition is a defect with a genetic cause... It's become widespread though, even when crossing two animals not showing the trait, their offspring can end up bug-eyed.

Early culling is the only solution but I suspect, even though it's the ethical choice of action, it's not going to happen. If it's allowed to continue though, more and more albino boas will have this defect, until it's being displayed by a good portion or possibly even the majority of the population.

What's worse... A lot of people seem to have no concept of the different albino strains. Since many "breeders" these days seem to think that proper selection of animals means "Dis one I gots right here an' dis odder one I dun seen fer sale cheap." it's only a matter of time before someone starts producing hets for both khal and sharp strain albinism which are carrying the defective genes, introducing them to other albino populations.

Jeff Ronne used / uses Kahl strain albino for his projects . Has anyone heard of any defective animals coming from him or do you think it might have been someone using substandard animals to produce Kahl albinos and went from there?

No never heard of that. In reality most breeders have used the Kahl strain in their project as the Sharp it's still in its infancy.

What worries me the most though is that some people are doing this for a living. Let us suppose that after 4 years of raising the albino breeders, they reproduce and in the first litter of 20 albinos a one-eyed shows up. Great! They have a pair of albino breeders that can sell for let's say $6,000. Sell the one-eyed cheap for maybe $600 plus the rest of the clutch for maybe $1,000 each. Total = $25,600. What's it going to be? Put food on the table or...I think we all know the answer.

So how do you regulate individuals using defective animals other than educating as many as you can not to buy/use those animals?

We can't "regulate" individuals. Those are their animals and they are not hiding the defect, they are selling the animal "as is". Education is a possible avenue (and that's why this thread is here!) but then again there are the ones that are not very well informed about this hereditary traits. There are sellers that will tell them it's "traumatic" and they don't need to worry about it. And finally, there are those that will buy them anyways because they know they will produce "cheap" albinos and make a quick buck. There's not an easy answer. The best we can do is create the awareness in the general public that this problem exists, anda that it's not getting any better.

Regards,

I didnt even read this thread, as I followed it on another forum, and Im sure its full of the same arguments. So instead, Im just going to post my opinions on the subject. If I repeat what others have said so be it.

The albino gene is not the problem. All animals can and do produce defective babies under certain circumstances. I have seen mis formed, half formed, and deformed common boas as well as one eye albinos. I would guess the majority of "one eyed commons" dont get reported. Also I would think you would see more one eyed het albnos if it was such a problem.

I agree that a one eyed albino is a bad thing. And that breeding a one eyed animal is irresponsible at best. However this is a open and ffree market. If someone wants to be (in my opinion now) stupid enough to base their founding stock on one eyed animals thats there mistake. Im sure the market will not accept many of theese animals, and less as time goes on.

If I were just now getting into a albino project, I would suggest a few things. Buy the best you can, as your late in the game. Buy from quality stock without know genetic problems, and dont breed related animals. As more and more choices for stock are available, the low end, low ball breeders will be weeded out.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST BABY

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

I have seen mis formed, half formed, and deformed common boas as well as one eye albinos. I would guess the majority of "one eyed commons" dont get reported. Also I would think you would see more one eyed het albnos if it was such a problem.

Although those malformation could be genetic, in MHO it's more than likely a result of inadequate ambient temperatures. I do agree with you that one-eyed common boas are probably less reported as I would guess they are probably not even worth the time ($) to write the ad. Why do you think you would have to see more hetero albinos with eyed defects?

Regards.

Well I would suggest that if its is indeed involved directly with the albino gene itself, then one would assume it would appear also in the het animals at a higher rate then the general population. I personally have NEVER heard of a one eye het albino.

However one could also argue that it would only show up in animals displaying the albino trait, not thoose carrying the genetics but not showing them.

Personally I would imagine that its more directly related to constant inbreeding by a slect few breeders, rather then the genetics themselves. I bet if you did the same thing with hypos (ie breed brother x sister constantly) you would end up with many defects. Personally I feel that something is odd looking about many f4 hypos, and belived that outcrossing is the best bet with the hypos future rather then going for f5 or f6 hypos.

Also albino x albino breedings are not at this time wise, but in the future may not be a bad thing at all. With 10-20 years of outcrossing I would suspect you would have not problem breeding albino x albino (again as long as not brother and sister) without worries. But now I wouldnt do that.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

Personally I would imagine that its more directly related to constant inbreeding by a slect few breeders, rather then the genetics themselves. I bet if you did the same thing with hypos (ie breed brother x sister constantly) you would end up with many defects. Personally I feel that something is odd looking about many f4 hypos, and belived that outcrossing is the best bet with the hypos future rather then going for f5 or f6 hypos.

Yes, I agree. The advantage of hypos/salmons is the fact that they are co-dominant and thus people that want to start w/o spending a lot of money can do so with one hypo male and 2-3 normal females. This would also ensure a more diverse genetic pool. Then again I had no thought about the F3 plus hypos, and yes it might end up being a similar situation. The question is if the albino animal, because of the lack of melanin is more susceptible to non-genetic blindness from one or both eyes. The animal that is in the picture on this thread shows an anomaly that has all the appearance of being genetic in nature.

Regards.

I never really thought the eye deformity was directly connected to the albino gene, but rather the levels of inbreeding practiced from the beginning of breeding the morph sort of attached the two conditions together.
Early on some carrier of the bad eye gene was brought into the gene pool, then through constant inbreeding in the rush to produce more albinos, the gene proliferated, and is now commonly found in the albino lines.
The reason no hets are found displaying the trait is that they most often involved the breeding of an albino to an unrelated normal. Any normal looking snakes that may have hatched form an albino to het or a het to het breeding would be more likely to be destroyed than the much more valuable albino.

It may be that the bad eye condition is connected to the albino trait on a genetic level, but I have always thought it to be the result of an unfortunate introduction of a bad gene early in the project which gained a near permanent foothold as a result of inbreeding.
There's often a price to be paid for the quick payoff, and this is an example of that.
I've never been fond of albino boas from the start, but at this point I would be hesitant to buy one at all for breeding purposes because I would consider it likely as not that you would get a carrier even if you bought a great looking specimen. The damage has been done, and the simple fact is it will never be repaired.
Like Mickey said, perhaps with 20 years of outcrossing the genetic line may be purged, but along with the outcrossing the complete destruction of certain bloodlines would be required as well as the destruction of many individual snakes, and the reality is that just isn't going to happen, not as long as some breeders or dealers can turn a profit off even the deformed individuals.

I've never been fond of albino boas from the start, but at this point I would be hesitant to buy one at all for breeding purposes because I would consider it likely as not that you would get a carrier even if you bought a great looking specimen.

Clay,

My thoughts exactly. The problem is that I do like the albino boa and like you, first I don't have that kind of money right now, and secondly I would be really concerned of those defective individuals showing-up.

The damage has been done, and the simple fact is it will never be repaired.

Exactly. The only things that is left is try to create the awareness that the problem does exist and that those that care about the future of this mutation should be careful in choosing their breeding stock.

Like Mickey said, perhaps with 20 years of outcrossing the genetic line may be purged, but along with the outcrossing the complete destruction of certain bloodlines would be required as well as the destruction of many individual snakes, and the reality is that just isn't going to happen, not as long as some breeders or dealers can turn a profit off even the deformed individuals.

I highly doubt ANYONE is taking radical steps to eradicate the problem. Breeders that are in this for a living cannot afford to wait the 6 years it would take to introduce "fresh" normal blood in the albino genetic pool. What would be the price of the Kahl strain 6 years from now? The fact is that I suspect that those animals that are born with such a defect are oftentimes sold to brokers at discount prices.

Regards.

The fact is that I suspect that those animals that are born with such a defect are oftentimes sold to brokers at discount prices.

Or they try to convince people that it's the result of "trauma"
"This one was bitten by a littermate" or "this one was crushed under the mother at birth".
Anything but "Hey I have bad genes in my breeding stock but I'm not willing to do anything about it as long as you'll fork over some cash to get these at a discount."

Boas apparently suffer a hell of a lot of trauma immediately after birth that no other species has to deal with. Must be tough being a boa.

ok I just finished reading the whole thread, and figured I would add a few more thoughts.

First I have heard of eye problems with sharp and kahl strain albinos.

Second I would be more likely to worry about this being a ongoing problem when and if we start seeing sunglows with one eye or snows with one eye. Then we know its spreading into other genetic lines, and then I would agree its a problem.

Third I think some people are blowing a few things out of perportion (sp?). First and foremost from what I gather boas are not the easiest animals to breed. As such just because someone buys a one eyed boa, that gives them no guruantee they will be able to produce with them. In fact I would argue they are starting with inferior animals that are less likely to produce.

Fourth I would venture to guess part of the "mass of one eyes" you see are actually repeates. I would guess many people buy into the one eye animals thinking they are going the "easy route" only to over time realize their animals are flawed and decide to sell them. At this point you see the same animal over and over agin for sale with different people.

I would also pose this question, how can the precence of one eye albinos from sharp and kahl strains be explained ? Does the fact that one eyes from both exist make the situation different? We know thats two different bloodlines with the same "defect". Maybe boas themselves are just more suseptible to eye problems then other snakes.

With the proliforation (sp?) of captive breeding of boas over the years, quickened by the morph market, has also unleashed defects into the market. Many of theese defects likely occured in the wild, but likely dont survive, and as such in the "old days" were not imported to the market. However their genetics likely were even back then in their "normal" siblings.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles