Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

That's at least 3 lost sales already...no telling how many are going to read this and move on without a comment.

Stubbornness has hurt/ closed a lot of businesses here...how many people does it take to convince ATC that he's wrong?

Im just getting into torts...Im not a big breeder or buyer or anything, but Im still a potential customer. I had a bad experience getting an animal shipped to me, the sellers TOS states his warranty as live arrival guaranteed as long as you are there to sign for it. It arrived dead, after being slightly delayed...and due to no fault of the seller. But he made it right for me and refunded my money, as any good seller would do. Having one bad experience, and seeing that ATC does not care enough to cover a situation like this, makes me look elsewhere for my future tortoise needs. Its a shame too, because I do not feel ATC is a "bad guy", but he is def not doing the right thing here.

Although one can find many breeders who don't cover shipping losses, that doesn't make it like. I would even venture to say it is NOT "business standard" for anything but wholesale. It's just greedy / shortsighted.

Think about it - the breeder has total control on the method and packing of the animal, buyer can only request this and that. It's up to the breeder to say yes/no. Most buyers are only getting a few animals per year, while the breeder is the one sending out lots of packages per year. The breeder can adjust their prices to absorb the occasional loss. The buyer can... do what exactly?
Decide to never go back to the breeder who burned them I guess.

Why should the buyer be the one who eats 100% of the loss for an animal they never touched?

I'd not buy from someone who was not willing to replace or refund an animal lost in shipping. When I sold reptiles, I was ready to do so instantly for all animals I sent out, though fortunately that did not actually happen.

Uhg, that first sentence should read "Although one can find many breeders who don't cover shipping losses, that doesn't make it right."

As has been stated.... it DOES NOT matter the number of "Satisfied" customers you've had in the best.... It is indicative of an individuals character and morals on how they handle the "dissatisfied" customers....

Remember... you please someone they tell you a few, you displease someone... they tell EVERYONE they can.

Ultimately, the apparent loss of both the torts is the most unfortunate.

Eric anything from atc as towards a resolution?

Nothing other than was already offerred then retracted.

Looks like buyer is in California and ATC obviously not.
When goes to court wonder where that will be, in California or Arizona. Hopefully California.
Good luck to Erik, but I do believe he will win. Regardless of terms of service which most people agree dont stand up in court, I think there is a very good case for horrible packaging that led to demise. Not due to shipping delay.
Is that in the terms of service? That ATC is not liable for crappy packaging by ATC?

Pics of original packaging and what it looked like when you received it?

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

Here is a list of other companies with the same terms and conditions as Arizona Tortoise Compound..... Turtle and Tortoises.com, Florida Iguana.com, Turtle Source, Exotic Pets, Bill Zovickian, Underground reptiles, Bay Area Reptiles, Tortoise Shack, Garden State Tortoises, Cold Blooded Novelties, Carolina Pet Supply, Blue Water Reptiles, Snicker Snakes just to name a few. A few of these companies actually sponser the "Board of Inquiry".

I only found three companies that cover shipper/carrier errors. They list that info on there terms and conditions page also. Most other sites dont have terms an conditions listed. For those companies , they should since everyone likes to sue.

Andrew Hermes
Arizona Tortoise Compound

Excuse me, I don't know why my name is being brought up here, but these are my shipping terms, and I _do_ cover shipper/carrier errors.

Live Arrival Guarantee

As I cannot guarantee that proper care is being provided once the snake leaves my facility, I can only guarantee live arrival. Exchange of money and/or acceptance of a shipping date signifies acceptance of these policies. The three conditions of the live arrival guarantee:

1) An adult must be present to receive the shipment on the first delivery attempt.

All shipments are sent “signature required,” no exceptions. This is a contractual obligation of all FedEx certified live reptile shippers. I always recommend the shipment be sent “hold for pickup” to the nearest FedEx Staffed Center. Shipments held for pickup in this manner will be guaranteed live delivery by SnickerSnakes, even if picked up later in the day. These shipments are available much earlier than those sent out on the truck! Please check your FedEx preferences prior to arranging shipment because generally they will just leave a package, potentially without even
knocking, if they have your signature on file. My shipping agreement requires you to physically receive and sign for the snake as soon as it gets off the truck.

2) The forecast daily high temperature for your location on the delivery date must be in the 45°F to 90°F range. The forecast daily low temperature in your location must be above 45°F.

No guarantees are provided if the forecast daily high is outside the 45°F to 90°F range. You will need to assist me in scheduling your shipment during periods of extreme weather. While delays in scheduling a shipment may seem unbearable, they are nothing compared to opening a box containing a prized baby snake only to find it dead. For areas where temperatures outside this range are expected, I may, based upon the weather forecast, allow the shipment be sent “hold for pickup” to the nearest FedEx Staffed Center.

3) The FedEx expected arrival time for the delivery location must be listed as between 8:00AM and 12:00PM (Noon).

Actual time of arrival varies by location, but is by 10:30AM or 12:00PM (Noon) in most areas. Shipments to rural locations, listed as by 4:30PM expected arrival times, spend excessive time on delivery trucks and run a higher risk of death to the snake. For areas where later delivery times are the norm, SnickerSnakes will require the shipment to be sent “hold for pickup” to the nearest FedEx Staffed Center.

FedEx Priority Overnight shipments are not guaranteed by the carrier. SnickerSnakes guarantees live arrival for these shipments, provided the above conditions are met. You MUST contact me within 2 hours of receipt of the shipment regarding losses. Please provide a description of the condition of the shipment. Digital photographic proof of loss will be required at a minimum, and I reserve the right to request return of the frozen snake to me. Shipping costs are not refundable by me (although FedEx may elect to do so if they are at fault for delays). I must file claim on this and if approved by FedEx, I will forward your refund to you immediately upon receipt by me.

It is actually very, very rare for me to ship to a business rather than Hold At Location.