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Old 12-01-2010, 11:22 PM   #61
Sorry, I hope it's understood since I've repeated it several times over that NONE of us KNOW whether there is IBD or not, including Ashley.

It's just there was a PROVEN necropsy that indicated IBD, and a few deaths following, one with similar symptoms to IBD on a necropsy, but lacking the inclusion bodies needed to form a positive diagnoses.
Old 12-02-2010, 12:24 AM   #62
Ibd is so inconsistent and random, the only thing 100% thing known about ibd is that there is nothing 100% known about ibd. The python theory of them getting affected and symptomatic quicker is mostly true, but still just that, a theory. There are too many variables and unknowns with this awful disease to fully convict or acquit anybody potentially dealing with the disease. I in no way, think Ashley should put her entire collection down. However, I think that the fact ibd has been diagnosed within her facility/house and collection at one point, should always be information volunteered by the seller to a potential buyer. Good personal and business ethics/morals must come into play
Old 12-03-2010, 03:07 AM   #63
Originally Posted by reticguy76 View Post
Ibd is so inconsistent and random, the only thing 100% thing known about ibd is that there is nothing 100% known about ibd. The python theory of them getting affected and symptomatic quicker is mostly true, but still just that, a theory.
Really, really glad this was reiterated, and it should be, repeatedly.

There is a LOT of unknowns, and a lot of information that has been casually mentioned in speculation, have (over the years) become "facts" to some people. The more the misinformation is spread, the more danger to our collections.

I think a LOT of people are under the belief that if IBD is remotely present, pythons will not survive in the collection for any length of time.

I believe Adrya has proven this is NOT the case.
*March 2009 Female Boa died: necropsy found inclusion bodies in the liver & intestines. Also exhibited pneumonia and stomatitis
*Winter 09-10 Ball Python died
*June 2010 Blood Python died
*Oct 2010 Female boa voluntarily euthanized due to severe anorexia, muscle mass loss / head wobble
*Oct 2010 Male boa euthanized due to anorexia, muscle mass loss, even though eating & drinking normally, developed head wobble, and large tumor (side effect of IBD)
*Dec 1 2010: Female Suriname boa died

She STILL has 4 Ball Pythons and a Reticulated Python in her collection as of this date.

If she had maintained the "Pythons OK=collection OK" theory and introduced more snakes, or sold any, there would be a risk of contamination to those animals.

Originally Posted by Adrya
even my strict quarantine protocols taking place in a building completely seperate from my reptile building was not enough to keep a snake from sneaking the disease into my collection, even after quarantining each new animal for over 6 months.
THAT creeps me out.

She still has 4 Ball Pythons and 1 Retic, and just lost another boa yesterday.
Old 12-03-2010, 03:26 AM   #64
Absolutely. I have acquired all the breeder pairs I want and I am raising them up, but I'm going to be discussing this with my vet to see if getting them all biopsied would be a good idea just in case.
Old 12-03-2010, 03:30 AM   #65
Well... if your dates are right on the boa dying and having inclusions found... She DID add to her collection AFTER that animal died... Specifically, the jampea retic...

Just sayin'...
Old 12-03-2010, 08:38 AM   #66
Originally Posted by SakaraGT4 View Post
Well... if your dates are right on the boa dying and having inclusions found... She DID add to her collection AFTER that animal died... Specifically, the jampea retic...

Just sayin'...
If you read the thread on that board where she talks about the boa, Sahira, dying, she was told by the vet who did the necropsy it was due to pneumonia, then they had a tissue sent out to an outside lab for extra testing mid-March.

In the report you posted in post #36 of this thread, the facility received your sample June 1st, and it looks like it was faxed to your vet July 23rd. Nearly two months later.

So, if we assume she didn't buy the Jamp until the day that thread was posted (which she doesn't say there, so we really aren't sure of) I hardly think it is impossible to say she had not yet had an IBD diagnosis.

So, really, it looks like she'd had a snake die of pneumonia, then another snake begin to act ill and seem to be cured by Baytril, and then bought a new snake. I think that is a far cry off from having an IBD diagnosis in hand and selling babies anyway.
Old 12-03-2010, 01:25 PM   #67
Well... if your dates are right on the boa dying and having inclusions found... She DID add to her collection AFTER that animal died... Specifically, the jampea retic...

Just sayin'...
What is this? Why are you trying to switch the focus onto Adrya?

Adrya stated in the thread you pointed out that she didn't have the IBD results until later. She apparently thought it was just pneumonia. Even still, she didn't sell anything or add anything AFTER she received a report of IBD.

Adrya's collection's health is not in question here, as she has stated she believes it's IBD and is treating the collection as IBD infected.

SINCE the actual IBD diagnosis shes hasn't added, sold or donated any snakes.

She's certainly not euthanizing anything unless the snake's condition has deteriorated to the point it's necessary.

It appears to me, IMO, that your statements are not based on fact, but your assumptions, and you are trying to point fingers at others. (Yvonne, people "harassing" you, Adrya, etc..) instead of acknowledging there is a potentially VERY serious problem in your collection and in your actions AFTER you received the diagnosis.
Old 12-03-2010, 01:59 PM   #68
Originally Posted by SakaraGT4 View Post
Well... if your dates are right on the boa dying and having inclusions found... She DID add to her collection AFTER that animal died... Specifically, the jampea retic...

Just sayin'...

Oh OH, so you're trying to do a little research yourself and try to make yourself look better, huh?

YOU are in NO position to call ME OUT!!!

Sahira and Goliath were put together in the fall of 2008 (late Oct.) for breeding. At that time they were healthy. When Goliath had done his job and appeared uninterested anymore, I took him out. Then weeks later, Sahira died. I had her submitted for a necropsy and in the meantime I kept an eye on Goliath. A couple weeks later Goliath had an RI that he had gotten from Sahira and so when I took him in to be examined, Sahira's lab test results were back.

All the vet told me was that she indeed died from pneumonia, as were indicated in the test results. He NEVER said ANYTHING about IBD in the test results. All I knew at the time was that I must have made a mistake somewhere and that it was my fault. I thought maybe the dust in the aspen bedding caused it. YOU have NO IDEA how badly I blamed myself for death, yet it didn't make sense to me how she got sick in the first place since her husbandry was correct for the entire time I had been keeping her. She was my FAVORITE. I don't know if the vet overlooked the IBD in the results or was being stupid and keeping it from me, or what. He had asked me how many more snakes I had, though I had wondered why he asked. I NEVER saw the test results. I had requested they send me a copy of the test results but they never did. So since everyone else seemed to be doing fine in my collection and had been for years (except Goliath) I just figured that it was indeed a freak case of pneumonia.

So I went about bleaching Sahira's old enclosure and left it empty. Later I had acquired the Jamp (which was a product of BW Smith and Chad Ramsey's jamps) and a boa from a long-time member on RTB who had the boa for years. BOTH of whom I trusted completely.

The Jamp and the boa were in quarantine for a couple of months. Not my standard 6 months as usual, but since they came from sources that I trusted, and since both snakes were fine, I risked putting them into my collection. That was the ONE TIME I ever let any snakes out of quarantine sooner than 6+ months.

Goliath responded to his baytril treatment, but since I was skeptical of the vet anyway, I didn't follow up with a second appointment for him to see how he was progressing. Come the end of June, Goliath's RI appeared again, and so I was given another vial of baytril and this time I followed the vet's protocols. Goliath responded to treatment and was cured of his RI. When I had gone to pick up the second vial I requested again a copy of Sahira's necropsy results for my own records.

Come the middle of July is when I finally got the necropsy results, but I didn't look at them until late one night. THAT is when I found out that Sahira had IBD. I WAS DEVASTATED.

The point is that I did NOT move ANY snakes out since Sahira's death or before her death for at least a year.

YOU however, tried to keep things under radar so that you could still keep selling snakes and moving them OUT, endangering other people's collections.

I don't know about you, but I CHERISH, LOVE, and CARE for my animals. I WOULD DIE for THEM. I would KILL to PROTECT them.

But YOU... YOU on the other hand, seem like you just care about the MONEY... Grabbing up snakes so fast that you can't possibly quarantine them properly. You obviously don't seem to give a rat's ass about other people AND their animals if you were still selling snakes knowing that they had been exposed to IBD.

YOU have NO place to talk!
Old 12-03-2010, 02:05 PM   #69
I'm probably among those counted as "mean" people, but there is a right way to do things and there is a wrong way. Thing is, you should have stopped a year ago when that first snake died having the necropsy report it did.

Ashley, I think you have good intentions, I know you love and are proud of your animals, but from the way I and many others see it, you got in over your head too quickly with the whole selling/breeding thing. The more that came in, the higher the probability of this type of scenario happening. You really have acquired a lot of animals in a short period of time without proper quarantine. You can't dispute that fact, as you've left a huge trail of breadcrumbs on RTB to prove that you didn't. If you had closed everything off after the necropsy on the BCL, and not sold anything at all, then you wouldn't be questioned at all. IBD and other suspected viral disease can take years to progress through an entire collection, as evidenced by Adrya.

The issue with Yvonne (she needs to test her animals as well), you sharing some personal details of your life on RTB and other forums all compounded at once and this is where we are now. I think if you were more discreet about what you posted on forums, acquired animals more slowly and quarantined them properly, you wouldn't have everyone jumping on you.

As for your friends defending you, that's honorable and considerate of them. I guess don't have many friends because I will point out when my friends make mistakes. Sometimes it's harsh but in the long run, no one learns or gains anything. I have had friends tell me I messed up badly. It hurt, and I grew from it.

This could very well be an isolated incident, but it will take a LONG time and a lot of testing to know for sure. This is an EXPENSIVE hobby. Not just animals, food, and caging, but for stuff like this as well.
Old 12-03-2010, 02:21 PM   #70
Just to get back onto the discussion about "assumptions"

Ashley, you have admitted you "assumed things were ok, based on your pythons being OK".
I think it's been pointed out that was not a safe thing to assume when dealing with other people's collections.

I emailed Elliott R. Jacobson, DVM, PhD, Dip. ACZM from the University of Florida. He is the main researcher of this and other ophidian related diseases such as Crypto, OPMV, etc..

This is the email I sent, just to keep things neutral NOTHING about THIS thread, or your actions was mentioned. Therefore it can not be seen as an "attack" or "harassment".
Adrya gave me permission to use her case as an example for my questions.

Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 11:41 AM
To: Jacobson,Elliott R
Subject: IBD in pythons: a few short questions

Dr. Jacobson,
I am writing to ask your professional opinion regarding IBD and it's affect on pythons.

I have done a fair amount of reading in regards to IBD, including your information on the Uof F website.

One thing I have seen repeated in discussions of the disease: the assumption "if pythons in the collection are still thriving, it's "safe" to assume IBD is not present".
This is even assumed despite necropsy reports on other snakes indicating the presence of IBD.

I have a good friend, Adrya Webb who has been in contact with you regarding some IBD related deaths in her collection.

From my understanding, she received a necropsy in March 2009 indicating IBD in a boa. Since that time, she has lost several snakes exhibiting similar, and different symptoms.
Some of which include:
presence of tumors, head wobbles, noticeably swollen abdomens, presence of sudden respiratory infections.

Adrya has lost 2 pythons and 4 boas since March 2009.
Adrya's case is singular, I realize, but in both her & my opinions, the case shows the theory "IBD wipes out pythons in a collection faster than boas" to be unproven.

The reason I am writing is to try to clear up any misconceptions, as it seems there are so many floating around. I am concerned if this misconception is allowed to float around with no contradicting statements, it could prove detrimental to collections.

I realize not much is known at this time regarding the disease, and a lot of further testing is needed.

I feel this disease is not one that should be underestimated, as it has devastating potential in the captive bred collection.

I realize you are very busy, and I am only asking for a few short answers if you would be so kind to reply.

From your professional, medical and scientific standpoint:
After receiving a diagnosis indicating IBD:

*Do you feel a collection can be considered "stable" if there have been no python deaths in a matter of a few months despite initial confirmation of the presence of IBD via necropsy?

*How long do you think a collection should be closed (no breeding/selling/additions) after receiving a positive IBD diagnosis?

You mentioned in your report on IBD the "absence of inclusion bodies does not necessarily mean the snake is free of IBD":

*What type of tests do you advise one have performed on their snakes, and how often?

*How long after receiving "clean" results from the above tests could one POSSIBLY "safely" assume their collection is free of IBD?

I am hoping you will be willing to provide me information or opinions based on your findings, and I sincerely appreciate your time and research in regards to this devastating disease.

Thank you again,
Courtney Roles

He replied today. (To those who care enough to contact him, he really tries to reply promptly)

He included a PDF file on a paper he and Dr. Li-Wen Chang wrote in regards to IBD.

I will try to post relevant information from the paper in quotes after I have time to read it myself.

If anyone would like a FULL copy of the paper, I will be glad to forward it to anyone interested. Please contact me via PM with your email and I will forward it via email.

I'd post it here, but 10 pages of PDF with sources, references, etc is A LOT to sift through, and I don't want to deviate from the facts and have other important information go missing.

This was his emailed response to me:

From: "Jacobson,Elliott R"
To: "courtney"
Message contains attachments1 File (3013KB)
10 IBDReview JexoticPet.pdf

Regarding your questions, please read the attached recent paper that has come out.

For some reason the epidemiology of the disease has changed since first being recognized in the late 1970s.

At first it was seen in pythons and then shifted to boas.

We believe that boas are the natural host.

The number of python cases having IBD has declined and we do not know why. It is possible that there has been selection for resistant snakes. But we just do not know.

Boas continue to be a major problem.

We now have a blood test that allows us to identify IBD inclusions in those snakes that have them in blood.

This test identifies positives but not necessarily negatives.

We do not know how many snakes which do not have inclusions in blood do have them internal in viscera.

The test is based an an antibody that specifically recognizes the protein in IBD inclusions. It is going through extensive validation and at this point we feel it is very specific. We expect few if any false positives.

I hope the article helps.

Elliott Jacobson
Professor of Zoological Medicine
There you have it. I hope this will put a stop to the misconception that "Pythons die off faster than boas".
Regurgitated information from someone who was initially speculating can be devastating when used in serious situations such as this.

We can only hope that no serious damage has been done here based on assumptions.

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