what happens to a pyro when you shake in a little kingcorn?

i was civil until Seamus began with the name calling actually. read back at his posts. his posts directed to me are chock full of personal insults directed toward me.

we are trying to make F2 generation of the pyro king corn and might sell them once we see how variable the offspring are when line breed with similar parents.

i think its ridiculous to call these snakes ugly. they are actually wonderfully patterned snakes. but to each there own. i have enough ammo on why hybridizing is beneficial for species and how some species depend on hybridization for survival but i will open that can of worms later.

for the record we breed plenty of snakes that are not hybrids and have a vast knowledge of all of the species we deal with. just because we breed pyro king corns does not mean we don't breed pyro still. all of our hybrids are paired with careful consideration which is why pyro was added to the king corn in the first place. a nice long snake with a amazingly high band count added to a cal king corn snake hybrid. it came out wonderfully and if you guys don't like them...don't buy them. there are plenty of people that will... if we ever decide to sell them to the public.

we make no claims that these are our prize snakes. we have some of the nicest striped gray bands and western hognose i've seen and if you doubt it than visit our website. while you're there look at our honduran collection or the thayeris with the patternless belly.
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

all of which are pure bred. a good portion of which are locale specific. we keep them seperate. hybridizing and breeding pure snakes. personally i'll take a nicely colored wild caught hognose over any hybrid we carry. but like i said opinions differ.

to tell someone what they're doing is not only easy but wrong and a crime against nature is extremely simple minded. i call them as i see them. read Seamus' long long long post where he refers to me as "a bag of... " and continues to insult my charecter simply based on the fact that he doesn't agree with something i do. NOW THATS SIMPLE MINDED!

i promise you... you will never accidentally buy one of our hybids. if you do buy one you'll know. BECAUSE THEY LOOK DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER SNAKE OUT THERE.

as far as being driven by greed... i can't help but laugh at that statement. if breeding hognose and gopher snakes is supposed to pay for a new lexus in my driveway than i'm doing it all wrong. i'd be better off selling indigos seeing as they go for about 700 to 1000 a piece. but no, i deal with snakes that i have a personal love for ( not to say i don't like indigos). Pyro king corns included. and if i never make a dime from it than i'll be ok. but it would be nice to see a return on all the money i've invested in snakes. and seeing as it is all done from the heart than you will never get a sick, kinked, misrepresented, non feeding, or starving snake from me. and if the fact that i also deal with hybrids makes you question my integrity than you too are also simple minded. try not to hate people because they honestly practice in a industry that has potential for corruption. thats called predjudice.

it sucks that people have used hybridization to back breed albinos into colombian redtails and nelson milks and what have you. but we do not back breed. we cross hybrids with other hybrids. and make no claims that these snakes are pure anything. if we were trying to be sneaky would we be announcing it on a popular forum... "hey look at these hybrids we have!!!"? once again i urge all you people who have attacked us for our practices to head on over to Diablo Snake Farm and see what we got. all of our so-called abominations are on a seperate page so can can avoid them all together if you want.

i'm done for now.

thanks
chad elmore
Diablo Snake Farm

i have enough ammo on why hybridizing is beneficial for species and how some species depend on hybridization for survival but i will open that can of worms later.

Why not open it now?

You refused or were unable to answer the pretty basic questions I had related to your "scientific research" with regards to this hybridization, which you personally used to justify the action...

I'm still waiting on it... What exactly was the experiment, what did you learn, what did you prove?

As a followup, since you still seem willing to make very vague comments that imply there is some positive ramification for hybridization... Open the can of worms please and tell me just which species depend on hybridization for survival and how it is benificial for captive populations.

Incidentally, claiming that there are rivers and mountains that break up the natural ranges of the species you have crossed is not an argument FOR the hybridization, it's an argument AGAINST it. They have evolved independantly to meet different climatic and environmental conditions, part of the ability to maintain a species in a healthy manner in captivity comes from an understanding of the natural evolution to meet the environment. By crossing animals from different environments, you are combining conflicting genes and creating an animal that is less able to be predicted and thus... less able to be cared for properly.

You also never told me what happened to the rest of the clutch, as you said, we've seen three individuals- Where are the rest?

read Seamus' long long long post where he refers to me as "a bag of... " and continues to insult my charecter simply based on the fact that he doesn't agree with something i do. NOW THATS SIMPLE MINDED!

Yet as simple as it was, you were unable to answer the few direct questions put forth within it. You can clear that up of course by detailing the "scientific research" that you were performing.

if breeding hognose and gopher snakes is supposed to pay for a new lexus in my driveway than i'm doing it all wrong. i'd be better off selling indigos seeing as they go for about 700 to 1000 a piece

That's simply a falsehood.

The way to turn a profit with breeding herps is not generally to go for those moderately high end species with the more difficult breeding, slower reproductive rates, legal issues and less general appeal.

The way to make money is to breed more common species that people will buy with greater frequency... You can sell literally hundreds of cornsnakes (non-abomination ones) at $10-50 each before you sell one snake for $1000+

Just more lies, eh Chad?

i promise you... you will never accidentally buy one of our hybids

It's really not an issue of more educated individuals buying one of your hybrids directly from you...

It's an issue of neophyte keepers who don't know any better buying animals from you and then producing mislabeled offspring. Or buying them from someone you sold them to who doesn't have your (sarcasm here) high moral standfards.

Care to answer the questions set forth in the previous posts and give us all some detailed understanding of just how hybrids are "good" and what scientific research you have been at the forefront of breaking into? It would go a long way to establishing credibility and, if you actually do have the information I'd like to hear, I'm recceptive to it. Skeptical but recceptive... Only your continuing refusal to back up the statements you made earlier leads me more and more to believe that they were simply lies, that you did no research and have no understanding of the biology involved and merely said that because you didn't think you would get caught.

okay i live in california where there are no legal issues with indigos. sure they are difficult to breed but either way they sell for up to $1000 so a clutch of say 10 could probably pay off the rest of my car and leave a little change in my pocket. hense my point, my self rightous assinine friend.

when i have time i will quote my Essentials of Modern Biology Book which will without a doubt point out the benefits of hybridizaton in the wild. Tell me, please how MY hybrids are less able to be cared for properly. i take care of my pyros, corns, and cal kings all the same way so why, pray tell, would it be a mystery to me how to take care of my hybrid of them.

for the record, some corns sell for more than $50. you're understanding of the market is questionable much like your knowledge of science as a whole.

you want me to sit here and lay out my whole operation for you? is that it? you want me to share any discoveries i made or any hypothesis i may have developed for this coming season? okay. sure. i'll throw you a bone...



1. i believe that in crossing the F2 generation of king corns that specific coloration and pattern will emerge showing dominant. such things as wavy bands and the checkered belly for example.

OR

i believe that much like the thayeri ( a snake that exists at the axis of 10 subspecies of lampropeltis)... if enough crossing takes place with other species of kingsnake... the offspring will come out extremely variable.

this may help to either prove or disprove that the thayeri is in fact a naturally occuring hybrid snake which is why they pump out variable offspring.

this is the only thing i will allow myself to share with you. i have many theories that i am in the process of better understanding. but i can't justify sharing them with you, cause frankly, i don't like you.

if you would like to see the rest of the clutch i can ask jerimiah to post pics of each snake from the clutch. the whole clutch. and then you can observe for yourself just how abominable they are.

i still don't see any credentials or any reason to believe you are even a snake breeder at all. probably just a guy with too much free time on his hands.

no one is going to buy a king corn believing its a 50 dollar snake. because they won't sell for that amount. they will sell for more.

do you know why indigos are hard to breed? because they are aggresive snake eatters. thats right seamus. indigos are hard to breed because they ( like cal kings and most other king snakes) EAT OTHER SNAKES making it difficult to breed them.

so with that in mind don't expect to see Pyro King Corns on the colubrid classifieds for $10-$50. if your new to snakes i suggest you do like i did. RESEARCH WHAT YOU ARE BUYING!!! its stupid not to.

if i missed anything... i'm sure you will point it out seeing as thats all you've ever done. its obviously all you're good for. arguing. filling your posts so full of fodder and nonscense that the few questions you do ask get lost in the reading of the rest of your pointless babble.

chad elmore

p.s. its rude to answer a question with another question.

p.s.s. why would anyone go to the hybrid forum to talk trash. you can't even address the questions i have asked. but than again with every new post you throw up i get less and less interested in bothering myself with you. i suggest that you lay out your questions in a more legible fashion. maybe number them for me. lets get a real debate going. and oh yeah.. i think you're kinda abusing the quote feature. half of the quotes you posted don't even really pertain to your response to them. good luck with that. i'll be hear holding the front. and jeremiah will be in the back with the canteen and the explosives for when you're ready to really open this up as a debate.

Personally, I see no point in attacking those who are against the hybridization of captive snakes by calling them "purists" in a pejorative manner. The reason so many people are against the hybridization of captives is because we may eventually have a difficult time getting animals which are free from the results of some people's "experiments." That's why the talk about selling these "creations" upsets so many people.

As to your assertions that hybridizations occur in the wild, I think we may be mixing our terminology a bit here. I know that there are naturally occurring intergrades (I agree with the idea that Kisatchie corns may well be an example of this), but I thought the whole concept of "species" is that natural cross breeding does NOT occur!?!? I have never seen a corn x eastern milksnake cross, except for those which were captively bred.

Do you two have any examples of naturally occurring hybrids? Not intergrades, but actual hybridization to support your claims??

Thanks in advance for your help on this --

i understand your point Darin. but by that i should be allowed to cross anything within a given species without upsetting "people against hybridization". but wouldn't that make it more difficult for me to find the locale specific snake i'm looking for?? these intergrades are what you should all be against. they are the less obvious mixes. the sneaky little buggers that you thought was a riverroad grayband but turned out to be a generic intergrade. take a riverroad gray band and cross it with a similar locality. now take the same riverroad grayband and cross it with a honduran. which one is more likely to be misrepresented as a riverroad grayband?? same with redtail boas. obvious hybrids like the ones we produce are unmistakeable even if backbred. how many generations of back breeding would it take before a Pyro King Corn started to look like one of its ancestors? how long before the cal king and corn snake washed out of it. we don't back breed but i'm saying in the hands of these hypothetical amature breeders. what 5 generations... maybe 6. and how many years would that take? figure about 2 years to account for growth to sexuall maturity. 2 years X 5 generations=10 years. so 10 years later you would have managed to maybe wash out most of the other species of snake. its a long time and a lot of work just to produce a pyro that obviously if your back breeding it to pyros you won't even need it. YOU'LL ALREADY HAVE SOME!!! i am defendng the products we provide. which are obvious hybrids. logically it would be redundant to try to create pyros from Pyro King Corns so why would even the most unexperianced breeder bother when they can just purchase a pair of pyros and create 100% pyro? we also sell our snakes in pairs and when the pyro king corn is ready to be put on the market people can buy them as such. they won't have to breed them with pyros. which we also sell.

thank you
chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

oh and as far as examples of natural occuring hybrids... no. not as of yet. but thats one of the things i would like to prove with my "experiments". that they do exist in nature, with overlapping locales.

well i'm gonna get back to work.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

if you take a nice look at the southern hognose of the species heterodon ( simius) it looks like a hybrid of a heterodon nasicus and heterodon platyrhinos ( eastern hognose). i have no proof as of yet but if i cross a eastern hognose with a western hognose it is my theory that i will produce something very similar in apperance ( if not the exact same thing) as a southern hognose.

this of course is merely a intergrade if proven true because they both reside within the same species of snake ( heterodon).

these are the sort of experiments that are preformed with the use of hybridization. the origin of a species or subspecies can be determined or disproven this way.

once again i will not put the neccessary time it would take to quote my biology book to backup the statements made in previous posts of this thread this time around but i will when i get enough free time to do so.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

Heterodon is the genus.

The second word, uncapitalized is the species. An additional uncapitalized word would be a subspecies.

Southern Hognoses are a separate and distinct species, not a subspecies, not an intergrade.

There are a number of terms you are using that you apparantly do not understand the meaning of... such as "Species" and "Intergrade" and "Hybrid" and "Locale Specific"

If you don't even understand basic taxonomy, how can you claim to be performing research of any value? If you're not performing research, then that removes your justification for your action and leaves you right back with "I want to produce something people will pay more money for and don't have the dedication to breed something difficult so I bastardize evolutionary uniqueness"

these are the sort of experiments that are preformed with the use of hybridization. the origin of a species or subspecies can be determined or disproven this way.

Incidentally... No they can't.

The ability to produce viable offspring is something that has some *slight* value in determining the deviation of the natural history of a species, but it most certainly does not prove conspecification. There are natural isolating mechanisms that keep species separate as species in the wild... Corns do not encounter Cal Kings, but they do encounter say... Eastern Kings. There are no verifiable reports of natural hybridization between the two species, this indicates that there are factors other than mere interfertility that come into play when determining species.

Behavior has a genetic basis with herps, when given identical stimulus (Truly identical) wild herps of the same species will react the same way with minimal deviation for genetic drift. It's only in captivity that you can pervert and distort and mutilate those instincts to produce your abominations.

So very right Seamus.
All that would be proven with the hypothetical Heterodon cross is that you can perhaps produce something which LOOKS LIKE simius, it proves nothing more.
It all boils down to this, ego and the desire to make a buck off the uninformed consumer.